28. Ian Coll | Filmmaker / Photographer | The Art of Sales

In this episode, Marshal interviews filmmaker Ian Coll, who shares his journey to breaking the six-figure mark and the significant changes he made in his lead generation process. Ian discusses his approach to discovery calls, follow-up methods, and client proposal strategies, along with handling price objections by understanding the true reasons behind them. He emphasizes the importance of being a problem solver who genuinely cares about clients' issues to stand out in the creative industry, offering valuable tips and strategies to elevate your sales game.

Episode Highlights:

3:39 Ian's Humble Beginnings

5:57 Getting Drawn into Videography

9:03 Ian’s Breakthrough Moment

12:58 Lead Generation Strategies

22:16 Referrals, Discovery Calls, and Follow-Ups

34:44 Handling Price Objections

39:53 Sales Calls and Cold Calling

50:10 Closing Deals

1:00:00 Solving Clients’ Problems

🔗 CONNECT WITH Ian Coll 📸Instagram | ⁠www.instagram.com/iancollmedia⁠ 💻Website | ⁠www.cedarsprucefilms.ca⁠

🔗 CONNECT WITH MARSHAL

📸Instagram | ⁠www.instagram.com/marshalchupa⁠ 💻Website | ⁠www.marshalchupa.com⁠ 👥 Linkedin | ⁠www.linkedin.com/in/marshal-chupa-99a7921a8⁠

📄 SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT

Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - ⁠www.shotlistpodcast.com⁠

🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST

This podcast is all about helping emerging cinematographers, photographers, and directors navigate the challenges of making a life and a living behind the lens. From workflow to personal growth, creative vision to marketing, finances to production—every episode is packed with a wide range of topics to support visual storytellers in their pursuit of building a business and growing a career they are proud of.

🎧 LISTEN FOR FREE Apple Podcasts | ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/shotlist/id1645435800⁠ Spotify | ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/3m5203Y5yQ7wNXQhZBOmNV?si=f46bc0e937bf40c1⁠

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📱 GET IN TOUCH

You can also drop me a DM instagram @marshalchupa or email ⁠marshal@marshalchupa.com⁠

Transcript

Introduction and Welcome

Things started really shifting for me when I was, like, when clients would message me or call me or contact me, and they're like, we want to make this video. And, like, the first question I ask is, why? Right? Like, why do you want to make this video? And, ah, a lot of the times, them hearing that from a video guy or a photographer or a creative is not generally part of the process. They're like, wait, what? And it's a tactic, and I want to get. I don't want to get too deep into it, but it's a tactic that I learned called, you know, you try to kill the engagement. And it's this process of, like, you push them back to see if they pull back in to see if they're really interested, because up until that point, I would do, like, everybody else. You send off my work. Here's my portfolio. Let me know if you have anything coming up. But it's really about getting in the mind of these businesses and thinking, like, what's valuable to them. Um, and then leading with that.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the shotlist podcast, where we talk about how to make a life and a living behind the lens of. Hey, guys. I'm cinematographer Marshal Chupa. Uh, and today I'm speaking with Ian Coll. In this episode, Ian and I dive into why so many lens based creatives are struggling to find work and feel stuck waiting for their phone to ring. Ian's sales process that broke him through the six figure financial ceiling. Specific strategies and tips to lead a client through the sales process, including the old confused man technique and how to empower yourself to create opportunity when you are hearing crickets and the phone isn't ringing. Ian had such a wealth of knowledge and passion around the sales process, I struggled to know how to put a cap on our hour and a half conversation. And I think that sales is such a fundamental skill we all need if we want to make a living from our craft and not just let it be a hobby. I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Let's dive in. All right, Ian, well, thanks so much for coming on the shot list podcast. Excited to have you here.

Yeah, man. No, excited to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me on. Yeah. So I think we met probably three or four months ago in a, uh, pretty intense way. I think, within, you know, we went from, like, hey, good to meet you, to, like, uh, oh. Like, these are my deepest pains and shadows, you know, of my childhood, or what I'm currently working through, uh, in a hot sauna.

Yeah, that was intense. And. And it was so funny because when we actually really met, it was, like, in the dark parking lot.

That's true. Just outside of the sauna. And you're like, who's this tall guy? Yeah. Yeah. Just for those listening, where we both jumped into, like, a men's work evening workshop, I guess you would say. Yeah.

So, yeah, we went into depth, spent some time around the campfire, spent a lot of time sweating, going deep on some topics. But that was a really interesting start. Like, that's not usually how people meet, so.

No, but that was awesome. No. And here we are. Here we are. So the reason I wanted to get you on the podcast, one, we both play with cameras for a living, but two, we were texting back and forth, and, um, it asked you, I specifically said something about, like, how do you respond to follow up, follow up with clients and leads? And, uh, you said three words that I've never heard anyone say before. That's a creative at least. And you said, I love sales. And I was a little bit freaked out by that, which was interesting. And then you proceeded to send me a five minute voice note back about all the things to do with basically how to go through the sales process with the client in regards to video production. But before we dive into that, because I'd love to dive into those sales specifically with you, but I just love to get to know you a bit of.

Ian's Humble Beginnings

So where did this video thing start for you? Yeah, so, I mean, I think, like a lot of video guys, I started off as a photographer back in 2018, I believe. So I studied media in college, and we did a bit of photo, bit of video, a bit of web design, kind of a little bit of everything. And I just gravitated towards photography personally. I got really into product photography specifically, and then naturally transitioned into outdoor adventure and sport photography, shooting, climbing and running and all of those things. But, yeah, I got into video because honestly, at the time, clients were like, do you shoot video? And I was like, yeah, I think so. Sure. Learned a little bit in school. This is before the short form content boom. But it was at the point when video really started to take off in more of the online marketing world back in 2019, so, yeah, and I just, I really fall. I really fell in love with the process. I loved just adding in more, more layers to the creative journey and being able to work on different types of projects and bigger budgets and all of those things. So I just naturally started doing video, and then over time, shot less and less photos, started doing photography more as a, uh, side hop, more of a passion. And then, yeah, I've just been doing video full time now for about four years. So I think a lot of people end up landing in video in very similar ways, but, I mean, other people dive right straight into it. But, uh, I would say I kind of fell into it organically over the years.

Yeah, I think I kind of felt similar to that in that I also started as a photographer and then was like, wow, what's this record button on the back? Uh, has the DSLR evolution evolved? And sure enough, that was the ticket to making a full time living because there was just more budget behind video than there was photography.

Getting Drawn into Videography

Was that the case for you? Was it a budget thing that really pulled you in, or was it more of a creative choice?

I would say it was more of a creative choice. I wasn't really, to be completely honest, too motivated about money at the time. I was just trying to build a portfolio and work on cool projects, and I'd go out and about and film stuff on my own just to get better. But I really fell in love with it when I was thrown into it. In my last year of college, I got an internship or ended up filming a documentary in Guatemala with a whole bunch of the health sciences students and sick kids, doctors from Toronto. And we went down, and the guy who was heading up, he was the main video producer for the college I went to. He was like, you're going to conduct interviews, you're going to film b roll, and you're going to do it all in very dangerous neighborhoods. I was kind of chucked literally into the deep end. This is the first time using, like, a iv. So it was like when video really started becoming more popular in the modern day dslrs back in 2017, 2018. And I just loved that feeling of, like, there's so many moving pieces that are happening right now. And then I remember, like, when we were piecing together the documentary just being like, holy crap. Like, I think. I think I want to do this more. Like, I think I could really have a go at this storytelling. I feel, like, jumped to an entire new level of depth compared to photos. And I know photographers would probably be like, hey, but there's just so many other avenues to tell a story. Once you add in motion and sound and people talking and music and scores and sound design, and there's just so many layers of depth that go into. So, yeah, that's kind of where I fell in love with it.

You came from a music background, right? Is that correct? Yeah. So my years before that was producing music and recording bands and playing with a lot of that audio stuff. So I've always loved that element of, uh, the process. So it's funny, even nowadays, whenever I think of a project, whether it's personal or client, the first thing that I do is open up one of my music softwares, whether it's like music bed or artlist or one of those, I always think music and sound first, like, what is it going to sound like? And then I build the visuals off of that, which is, I know, very backwards compared to a lot of creative people.

Yeah, yeah, that is definitely unique to you, which, uh, that's interesting. And just to give like, people an idea of the kind of projects, I think you've been more like one man band kind of like, you know, doing, wearing all the hats. Is that, am I correct with that?

Kind of, yeah, that's the domain that I've, I've been playing in for the last number of years. So I've always kind of struggled to identify, like, when people are like, what do you do? It's like, well, I really enjoy doing a bit of everything. Like, I'm not a DP, a photographer, I'm not an editor. Like I, I call myself a creative director. Cause for me, that was the way that I was able to kind of encompass doing everything on my own. And I've had a fair amount of success doing that.

So, yeah, which leads me to kind of the sales part. And I think this is the piece that. Because. Did you say you had went to school for business at all or did I, or.

No, no, I mean, I took business classes in school, but most of the business stuff that I've learned and the sales that I've learned have been a combination of self taught, but also like, being mentored by others. And as, you know, throwing myself into the deep end. And we can probably get into that about how, how I chose to do that. But, yeah, nothing formal at the YouTube university.

Yeah, uh, yeah, fair seems to be the way of, the way of the new kids these days. New crowd.

Lead Generation Strategies

Yeah.Okay, well, so then for those just getting started, let's try to, you know, how did you begin from scratch? Like, okay, you got a, you got a DSLR and a gimbal, you've built a few videos. Like, what started to make the difference, to start to build an actual business and, uh, a company.

Yeah. So things took off for me about two years ago when I stopped focusing on, to be honest, like, I stopped focusing on the gear, I stopped focusing on what things would look like. And I just started focusing on, like, the problems that businesses have. And then I started treating video and photography as, like, this is just one medium that we can use as a solution to a problem that a business is having. So, like, things started really shifting for me when I was, like, when clients would message me or call me or contact me, and they're like, we want to make this video. And, like, the first question I ask is, why? Right? Like, why do you want to make this video? And, uh, a lot of the times, them hearing that from a video guy or a photographer or a creative is not generally part of the process. They're like, wait, what? And it's a tactic, and I don't want to get too deep into it, but it's a tactic that I learned called, you try to kill the engagement. And it's this process of, like, you push them back to see if they pull back in to see if they're really interested. Because up until that point, I would do like everybody else. You send off my work, here's my portfolio. Let me know if you have anything coming up. But it's really about getting in the mind of these businesses and thinking, like, what's valuable to them and then leading with that.

Yeah, you just said something important there. Because I think that's a, uh, question I had written down specifically because I think I hear this over and over from photographers, cinematographers, whomever is just like, yeah, I'm emailing this person with my work, I'm staying in touch, and then I'm just getting the, either I'm getting ghosted, or I'll get the simple line, like, I'll keep you in mind, what is going wrong here?

What's going wrong is that whoever is the creative that's reaching out, they're not thinking about what's in best interest for the company. If you were to exercise of put yourself in their shoes, they're a marketing director, or they're on the brand team, or maybe they own the business. It's a small business. They're not concerned about how fancy your photography is or how cinematic your visuals are. They care about growing their business, they care about attracting world class talent, and they want to do that in the most efficient and cost effective way. So where people are going wrong is that they're selfishly just sending out their work, thinking that it's good enough that it's going to just move the needle for them. When their day to day is tied up in managing people and trying to sell more products and sell their services, they don't care. And I think that's the hardest part for people to recognize, is that there's hundreds of thousands of people in North America that can create really good quality images. And it's about how do you to really separate yourself from those other people. It's about like, how can you come in as a problem solver and a critical thinker and then position your services as the solution? And, uh, that's the biggest shift that I made. That was taught to me was like, you're a solution now, and if you can't attach a problem to what you're trying to do, then there's no pain point for that person to take action on. We can get into it. I've made lists of the tons of ways that video and photo can be positioned. It's quite simple when you look at it as a framework. But rather than leading with the creative, you lead with a solution, or you lead with a problem, because that's what's going to get them to reply.

Right? So let's just say you have someone in mind, a brand you want to work with. You found the email to said person you want to speak with, which is a battle in and of itself. Maybe let's even speak to that. Like, how do you begin to figure out the person whom and to which is hiring you in that process?

Yeah, that's always been a tricky part. Lead generation is always one of, is kind of the most challenging aspect because it's that initial touch point. I've done it a couple of different ways. I've kind of tried everything cold called, I've messaged people on LinkedIn, I've cold emailed, I've knocked on doors, I've used various AI tools. And I would say the way that I think about it now is quality over quantity. I think we're all, there's so many, and people's inboxes are just filled with crap every single day. And I find the most, the easiest way to get in touch with somebody of importance.

And when I say importance, like, the social media coordinator is like the lowest person on the totem pole. So to answer your question of, like, who do I get in contact with? You always want to get in contact with a decision maker, and that changes depending on the business. Like, the bigger the company, the more people it has to go through to get approved. So I've always had the most success with these medium sized corporate companies, if you will. So an example of that. I don't know if that would be helpful to provide an example, I've always tried to go after a medium sized canadian, or it doesn't have to be canadian, but business that are anywhere from 50 to 100 employees where there might be a marketing team, but it's probably a team of five, and there's a good chance that the CEO is directly involved. An example would be a top architecture firm in Vancouver. Or even I did some work for Cuisinart Canada, the kitchen company. It's not an enormous company. There's only a couple hundred employees and they're all stationed in the same spot. The marketing director is easily accessible. So it's like, are these people accessible? And sometimes they're not. And then I just move on. Right? Like, for a while there, I was trying to get into, like, the biotech kind of pharmaceutical world of like, you know, and it's like a lot of these companies, like, you can't find them. Like, they're set up so that way that their people can't be contacted. It's, um, just an element of, like, how much effort am I going to go down this rabbit hole to get in contact this one person? Like, if it's a dream project, then, yeah, people will spend, I've heard heard stories where people will spend enormous amounts of time and money really trying to get to that one specific person. Like, I'll give you one example that I heard. There's a guy that really wanted to get in contact with this, like, marketing director. He found out that he was, like, a massive Chicago Cubs fan or a Chicago Bears fan, and he would, like, buy tickets and, like, mail them to his executive assistant. And, like, he made it a game. Like, he's like, I'm going to make sure that this person knows that I'm interested in what they're interested in. And eventually he just kept buying tickets anonymously and then eventually attached his name to it. And then the person replied right away. He's like, you've been the person that's been buying me two tickets to these games. How did you even know that I was a Cubs fan? And then that starts the conversation. And then they ended up working on a multi six figure brand partnership together. So it can get pretty deep in the, in the sales. Like, it really comes down to relationships and growth, and it's about putting in that time to build relationships and get in contact with the right people to say, like, maybe we'll work together a year from now. And that's a really hard thing to do. For creatives that need to eat. They gotta pay bills, they gotta do things and I have some ideas and strategies that I've used to kind of, like, get rid of those anxieties while working on these longer term engagements.

Well, let's hear them.Yeah, so I break things into, like, two buckets. I have, like, okay, here's my expenses. Here's what I got to make to, like, survive. And then, like, here's the kind of longer term relationships that I want to build out and that will materialize, like, 3612 months from now. And I just like, all right, so, like, that's funny. My dad actually uses the word. He's like, these are the milk and honey projects, and then, like, these are the long term relationships. And you have to think about them as, like, two completely separate strategies, like, in terms of things that aren't sexy to me but are really easy. Like, I shoot a lot of real estate because I built up a really good portfolio in that world. I don't talk about it a whole lot anymore. I don't post about it a whole lot anymore. But it's easy for me because the house doesn't talk back. I can show up, shoot some visuals, deliver it really quickly, and then I can almost get that out of the way. So then, for example, there's this guy that I connect with in town, and he's, he works with a lot of companies, and he invests, and he's been a big referral source for me. Like, we go for hikes every week, or we try to every couple of weeks, and the entire tension, uh, intention there is just, like, relationship building. Like, he sends me a project every now and then. We have a good time, we go for a hike. It's like our version of going out to the golf course, right? And, like, I'm not trying to get anything from him other than just, like, maintaining that relationship. And then out of the blue, like, last week, I'm the first person he thinks about when he's going to be investing in this electric motor company. And he's like, we're going to be needing some video work. And it's like, oh, perfect. And that's one of those examples where you're building out almost like human affiliates in that world where he's not the business owner, but he is somebody that is connected to the people that I want to be connected with. And I'd rather just develop a really powerful working business relationship with him rather than spending all my time just trying to, like, get the marketing director involved when I have no trust with this, with that person, but I have a ton of trust with this one guy, because we go for hikes, we talk about business, we talk about life, we talk about his kids, and like, you know, we want to go out in the jet ski together and like, there's all these things that we can do that just reinforce that relationship. But now it's like I'm his go to.

Mhm. Because of the trust that we've built. So, yeah, that's a huge thing that I've done. That makes a lot of sense because ultimately, I mean, yeah, relationships are the foundation of everything. And so, yeah, I think maybe creatives, I noticed creatives getting a little too obsessed or too focused on. I don't know. I don't know what the right word is, but just trying to, again, it comes back to that. Here. Here's my portfolio. And, um, keep checking in, but they're not really sure how to build that relationship. So I think it's more of a. And what I'm hearing from you is, like, building a friendship that then happens to transpire into business versus the other way around. Obviously there's intentions behind what you're doing, but they're definitely not forefront. Because it's a long game for you.

Yeah, it's that long game. It's a really painful shift to make, right? Because it's really hard to try to justify going for coffee or having dinner with somebody and paying when you're like, there's nothing to materialize out of this. But that's kind of the point, because people feel that from you, right?

True, true. Like a hidden agenda. But trust is everything. I've got this client in Kelowna that I've had for a couple of years, and he called me out of the blue one day last summer, and it's like, hey, man, like, I just, I want to make this commercial. Like, I don't, I don't have a big budget, you know, what will you do it for? And I gave him a quote, and he was like, oh, it's too expensive. Like, I'm going to have to. He's like, I'm going to have to go, um, you know, let me go look around. I'm like, great. I didn't really want to do it in the first place. It was a heavy editing project, and I was like, this is going to be. I'm going to resent this. And then 3 hours later, he calls me back and he's like, let's just do it. Because he's like, I don't have the time or energy to develop a new relationship with somebody now. He's like, I trust you, and I'd rather just go with you. That's the power of the long term relationship and trust. I live 5 hours from him. There are so many talented people that pick up cameras in the Kelowna area, and he calls me and brings me out from here, from squamish, because it's just about the relationship, it's not about, it's not about the content, per se.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one, especially for creatives, because we rely or we lean so heavily on, uh. Oh, you know, I'm unique because this is my edge, you know, visually, and therefore you should hire me. And man, I think, yeah, obviously that's what we seek. But again, I think I. Beautiful thing you said in the beginning is you have to reframe that mindset because that's not how the business or the person you're speaking with looks at you. Like, you know, maybe in the scenario where you're like a cinematographer and then the director is approaching you, then yes, they are looking for the look, mood, feel, exactly of your work. But we're kind of talking on the scale of like, direct to business or brand, 100%.

And I know there's a lot of people like me where they, or even they have the desire to be the DP or to be a director or to be that specialized role for a big brand. But in the meantime, they need to produce revenue going direct to business. It's about being a problem, uh, solver and selling a solution, rather than just selling a vision or a creative project.

Mhm. So if we continue to go through, um, the different touch points, you got two buckets, got milk and honey. We got long term. You're having to do both. Let's just say one's real estate, quick, simple, easy. The other one is like forming relationships with people over time, expecting nothing but knowing that it potentially could evolve into something.

Referrals, Discovery Calls, and Follow-Ups

So let's just say now your referral sends you a lead. Uh, hey, there's this guy I know, you should get in touch with him. I think he wants a video. Run me through the next step of that process.

Yeah, so if it's coming through a referral, I always try to have them set it up. So let's just, I'm going to create a pseudonym for them. Let's just say Dave contacts me. And Dave's like, hey, man, like, you know, I've been talking to this company. They'd love for you to get in contact with them. Like say, you know me, I'll be like, so the first thing I would do is say, I would, uh, thank them first of all. And then I say, like, are you able to do an email intro for me? Because if I just reach out and say, hey, I know Dave. And this is where it's always thinking about how the, uh, person on the other end, what's important to them, how are they thinking, how do they buy, how do they make decisions? And if I just message my name carries no weight to this new person, but Dave's name carries the weight. So I want Dave to make the introduction and this is huge. So then I'll message him back and be like, great. Absolutely. Are you able to do a quick email, email introduction for us? And then I'll take it from there. Most of the time, like people are genuinely happy to help if they're going to refer you. It's not a big ask to ask them to do the intro because now you're replying to a group thread where they have the trust. So I'll reply all. I'll literally say, hey, Dave, thanks so much for introducing me. You know, so and so. It's great to e meet you. I'm really looking forward to connecting and hearing more about some of the challenges that you're facing in your business and how, you know, we could potentially work well together. And the reason I say potentially is because you don't want to sound like you have the perfect solution because you might not. And that's just fact. So it's like if we're a good fit, it would be great to connect more and see if we can make that happen. And then I send that to everybody. And then I reply, just so I send two emails, I send that to everyone. Then I reply just back to this new lead and say, hey, thought we'd get this going on a new thread. Here's my calendar. And that's why it's a completely separate side conversation that I might as well mention. Don't ask them when they're available to connect over the next couple of weeks.

Good point, good point. Because they're sitting there like shit. Like I've got, we swear on this thing. Sure, why not?

They're like, they've got 100 things to do and now you as the service provider, you're making them think about when we should connect rather than being the person to lead that conversation. They talk a lot about in sales, like holding the frame and it's like, so I'll reply, say something like, hey, so and so, great to meet you, meet you. We'll um, keep this thrown here now so, you know, so you don't bother Dave. Keep it light. You know, here's my calendly link. Feel free to book in a call next week on a date that works best for you because now all they have to do is click your calendly link, click call and book it, and it goes into both your sessions. So like, that's a really easy piece of tech. It also makes you position yourself as like a true professional. It's like, wow, this person is so detached from the process that they're just booking at a time that works well for you then now it's on them. So going back to the like, are they actually interested? Well, if they really, if they're genuinely interested in connecting with you, them booking the call, it shifts the power dynamic from like they have all the power to now you have the power. It's on your time. That would be the next step. And all of that is to just get an initial call done. So as you can tell, I've almost just walked through a bunch of micro little things.

No, that's really important. It just takes time. It takes a lot of trial and error to figure out what works and what doesn't. But one thing that I will say is, because I know people, I can already imagine somebody sitting there that's like, well, what if you send that calendly link and they don't reply? Really simple. And this works every single time. Simple email, follow up their name. So like so and so where do we go from here? Send. That's it. Just like Marshall, you know, comma dash. Where do we go from here? And the reason that it's so successful is because on the other end their reaction is, oh crap, I forgot to get back to Ian. And then usually like, you'll see Bing calendar invite pops up. Hey, just booked in. So sorry, last week has been really busy. But there's no like, hey, just following up here, you know, would love to connect with you. I think that my service, it doesn't matter, like the call is the most important next step to make that relationship work. Get them on a call in as few words and as few steps as possible. So like so and so, you know, where do we go from here? And then it's now like their responsibility again to take that next step. Like you're now guiding them through your sales process rather than you trying to create something for them. Do you know me? Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Yeah. I'm curious of the power behind that statement, it's just like you use their name and then, uh, where do we go from here? It's just like, I don't know. It's because I guess you're holding the frame still, right? You're kind of. Why is that? The psychology perspective of that. I'm just fascinated by that.

Yeah. It's forcing them to make a decision. They have a couple options. They can ignore you because you have to respond to that because there's a question there, like, where do we go from here? Either they have to email you back, they either have to say, hey, sorry, it's been really busy. Now is not a good time. Can you reach out to me in a couple of months? And you're like, yes, great. Again, let's just say that's option number one. Option number two is they continue moving forward, but nobody likes to feel like they've dropped something for the most part. From what I understand about people, they don't want to feel like they forgot to get back to you. They'll usually reply, that makes sense.

So they dont reply. You use that line, they book in. Okay, whats the next step? You got them on a call. This is where creators freak out. They’re just like, okay, uh, I don’t know, what am I even offering?

Yeah, so this is what I call now, like a discovery call. And I didn’t coin that word. That’s pretty standard. But the way that I think about a discovery call is its like, you’re a doctor and you’re running them through a consultation. And I think one of the biggest areas that people make mistakes, and I've made this mistake as well, is trying to provide a solution to a problem that hasn't been diagnosed yet. It would be like walking into the doctor's office and the doctor's like, hey, um, what can I help you with? You get like three words out and you're like, I'm going to prescribe you Ritalin. And it's like, what? I'm not in here to talk about ADHD. I'm in here to talk about this growth on my foot. Right, right. Like that would be so backwards. Like, what happens? You go in and you spend the entire session, like, they ask you questions, you answer. Then the last five minutes is like, all right, great, we're going to get you on this stuff. So the whole point of the discovery call is 80% of it, you should be asking questions and listening and you should only be talking ten to 20% of the time. The entire point of that discovery call is determining a. If you can even help them. B, what issues they're having? What are they trying to accomplish? Even if they're genuinely interested in doing video, being like, you know, what motivated you to, uh, book this call with me today? Questions, like, have you worked with people in the past? Like, video people in the past? If somebody's like, oh, we're trying to, like, grow our audience, and then asking follow up questions, like, what are the biggest challenges you've had so far with growing your audience? Like, just digging deeper and deeper into deeper and, like, answering their questions with a question. And a couple things are happening when you do that. Like, and this isn't like rocket science. Like, you can Google questions to ask in a sales call. You can Google example scripts. I mean, ultimately, the best way to do it is just get on these calls and start asking questions and diagnosing, because two things are going to happen. A, when you ask questions and then repeat those questions back to them, they feel seen and heard. They feel understood. It signals that you're listening. It signals that you care about their business because you're asking enough hard, simple, like, hard questions that are direct, that help get them thinking about really what problems they do have. Because at the end of the call, if you've done a good job, they should realize that they need to take action on something. If you just kind of have this la de daddy call because you don't want to step on toes or you don't want to come off too direct, what ends up happening is, okay, great. Glad to know that you make videos. Yeah, we'll contact you if we have any projects coming up.

Classic. Or if they say we don't have enough of a budget, or, I mean, price objections are entirely different. I think we should get into those because I think that's important. But generally speaking, yeah, get on the call and just ask, ask. And then when they give an answer, repeat that back, like, hey, am I getting this right? You're telling me that your social media engagement is down with the current company that you're using and you're looking to potentially look at other options and other creative avenues. Like, do I have that right? And then they're like, yes. You're like, okay, great, cool. So given that, and then you kind of go into the next question, but you have to show them that you genuinely care about their result, or else they're just gonna, you're just gonna fit in with the rest of the creatives. Right. That make pretty things.

Yeah. I feel like that technique was called mirroring. Um, in the book never split the difference. Love him. Love Chris Foss. Yeah. Expert hostage negotiator. Definitely recommend that book. Lots of value in that one. I've used some of his tactics before, and, man, they work every time and they're so simple, right?

Yeah. I'm fascinated by the human psychology and how we work like that and how we hold frame and mirror back and all these little simple things that if you don't know it's happening, you could be just being led through someone's process and you have no idea. But it's so interesting when you start to, uh, learn about these things and you sort of catch other people doing them. Like, oh, I know what you're doing right now, or like, I'm up and not in a bad way. Or like, I'm observing you holding space really well. I'm observing you mirror really well. And it's just like, yeah, uh, it's a funny, it's a funny thing.

Totally. And one thing I want to say is because I know some people might think, well, hey, and this is starting to sound, like, super manipulative, right? Like you're just trying to, like, get in their head and get them to give you money. And it's like, well, the difference between. I heard this from Alex Hormozi because I love his content on sales, but he's like, the difference between sales and manipulation is your intent. Like, if you're just trying to make a buck and you don't give a shit about the whole process or the type of quality of service you're providing, like, your integrity as a business owner, then, yeah, it might feel a little sleazy, but if your intention is to really help them, you genuinely are like, look, I think that my type of work can really help this brand catapult forward, and we can attach some metrics to it to see if it works or not, then you're just trying to help them. And sometimes you need to show them and walk them through that process and help them help themselves. Uh, my favorite way is rather than trying to close a deal across the table, you're trying to get them to walk around to your side of the table.

Yeah, I like that. Um, yeah, it's such a simple reframing of the mind. I think a lot of creators struggle with that piece specifically. It's just like, oh, like, I don't want to take, you know, or rather they see the sales process or as, like, getting something, you know? Whereas I think you just reframed it into, like, well, you can't really lose if you're approaching them with, like, hey, look, I genuinely want to solve your problem and help you. Yes, it involves me getting paid and making a living, but it's just a reframe, because ultimately, if it doesn't. Doesn't work, that's fine. They don't see you as a person who can solve their problem versus, like, I don't know, I think we put too much shame on ourselves for not being the right person for the job or all these sorts of things. But, um. Yeah, I don't know. I really like that. Reframing.

Yeah. What is the quote? It's like, people don't. They don't make money by doing business. They do. It's something. I'm getting the quote wrong, but it's like, do the business first. Like, business first, and money will follow. Rather than thinking, like, money first, business follows. Right. So it's just shifting that around.

Handling Price Objections

Right. So what is the next pinpoint? Because you said price could come up. Let's talk about that. If they. If they object on price. Yeah. Price objections are. It's interesting. Like, most of the time, it's like, price objections are usually. How do I put this? I don't want to say that they're. False, but, like, everyone wants pay the lowest price, right? We're just humans.

Ultimately. The first thing I would say is, you always want to make sure it's actually a price objection. And sometimes it really is. Sometimes they're like, look, ian, you want to make this video for us for ten grand, we literally put aside seven grand. If that sounds believable. You can tell when someone's like, no, we literally contacted you because we put aside seven. We want you to do it. You said ten, but sometimes you can find that out through asking them questions like, okay, so let's just say, put the numbers aside for a moment. Do you believe that the work that I and my team can do, do you believe that if price wasn't an object, that we're the right person for the job? They'll kind of say yes or no, because if it's not about price, then they'll uncover something deeper. Like, we just don't know if you're the right team, or we might want to go somebody with more experience in the. The insurance industry of, uh, shooting commercials for insurance brokers. Sometimes there's these other hidden reasons that are disguised as price objections, because it's super easy just to be like, hey, it's not on the budget. You're like, all right, great. See you later. Another one is people will compare. They'll say, well, we talked to this other video company or this other director, and he's willing to do it for half the price. And that's when I'll usually say, great.

That's it.That's absolutely fantastic. It's funny how many times the more disconnected from the sale you can be, the better, because people, man, people want what they can't have. It's funny. This is about playing hard to get. Now, I've literally said to people, they'll be like, hey, this person's really talented, and they'll do it for half the price. Uh, I've literally said to them, literally used this the other day, and I was like, that's great. Here, how about this? You hire them, and if they knock it out of the park at that price, let me know and I'll hire them myself. And they usually kind of chuckle and laugh, and I'll be like, what are we doing here? Like this? Bringing it back to the problem they're trying to solve. Like, you guys are telling me that you want to increase your e commerce conversions by 50% and you want to spend $4,000. Like, is this. Are we really talking about a $4,000 problem here, or are we talking about something bigger? And it's just like, this isn't easy. I'm just talking about it like it's nothing. But I've spent years now fumbling my way through these conversations, and it's really uncomfortable because you essentially have to, as delicately as you can, call people on their shit or just dig deeper or just ask honest questions. I just landed a, ah, project a couple of days ago, and during the call, and she's like, oh, just so you know, the classic. Just so you know, we're talking to two other companies, getting quotes from them. Yours is the first quote that we've received, so we'll have to talk about it and get back to you. And normally people would say, great, cool, like, let me know. And I was just like, cool. Um, and I just. Curiosity, what are you guys mostly making the decision off of? Like, is it price? Are you trying to. Are you just trying to get the cheapest team? Like, do you care about the quality? Is it more just about getting it done? Like, I asked those questions. I'm genuinely curious. What am I up against here? And she's like, well, no, it's not just about price. Budget's not really our biggest concern. It's more about selecting the right person for the job. And I'm like, amazing. Then I literally said to her, thanks for letting me know, is there anything else that I can do to help move this process forward? Because now it's great. I now know that it's not just about price, right. If they're just going to choose the cheapest one, then they'll just go find the cheapest person. They'll ask somebody who's cheap, but they're looking for character, they're looking for trust. And the only way that I know that is because I ask them. So now, because at that point, I was going to send a proposal, and this is now, like the second stage, which is my favorite part that I can't wait to talk about. But, uh, yeah, I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but it's asking those follow up questions, right. Because it's constantly like, what are they thinking about? And the more information that I can gather, the more I can use it on them. I hate to say that, because now if they talk about, oh, it's really expensive, I can be like, well, I understand that. And you were telling me that you guys really care about the relationship here, and you really care about choosing the right team for the job. You got in contact with me because of a referral, and you really trust that person, and I really trust that person to recommend me. So is there anything that I can do to help make this process smoother? It's constantly, like, back to taking it away from the price and more about all the other aspects that go into a successful project.

Sales Calls and Cold Calling

So before we dive into the, like, the pitch or the, um, the other side of, like, moving forward, I remember you telling me something like, you did something like a few hundred sales calls or something like this. So, like, I feel, like, creative, freaking hate phone calls. And so I just want to, like, give people a bit of a back background check on, like, why you know this stuff, or if you've put in your rep, so to speak. Tell me, tell me that story.

Yeah, so again, about two years ago, I was really hitting a plateau in my business. I was still a couple years ago working part time here and there, or not quite really being able to get bigger budgets for projects, not big full blown commercial budgets, but in that kind of, like, I really wanted to get into that eight to $15,000 range where, okay, this is a budget that I can comfortably take on myself. I can do most of it, maybe bring out an assistant for the day, maybe have somebody edit it, but, like, I can still make a good amount of money, but also provide, like, a boutique product, like something really, really good, like a brand video for a medium sized business in Vancouver. Like, that was kind of my target, but I kept getting shut down, right? And I know that, like, I went out and did research that, like, there's companies like me that are doing this in that budget range. And I'm like, well, what do they have that I don't have? I'm like, well, I don't. I don't think I'm doing a very good job at identifying problems that they're having in their business.

I'm just trying to sell them something for ten grand. So I ended up joining this coaching program where this guy taught video owners, video business owners, like, how to become, like, business people, problem solvers, and video second. Business first. And I implemented everything that he taught me pretty much right away. And then that year, in, like, six months, I did 130 grand in revenue, which was insane. Now, it led to massive burnout, which was terrible. That's a different conversation. But it was like, my first taste of, like, hey, I broke the six figure mark in business, which is the mark that every single person that I know that has been in business or whether they're starting, that's the first milestone that people really want to hit. And it was really important to me. And I was like, hey, I did it. And then I was like, well, did I just get lucky? Or, like, did I actually, like, what was I doing? So I started to dive into, like, where I was successful and where I wasn't successful and really reflecting on that, and then I was like, I think, like, the sales aspect that I was doing, that's what the biggest reason for the success. But there's an element where, like, I still felt like I was a bit lucky. Like, I didn't think I wasn't well refined. I just think that I got the right clients with the right budget, and things just kind of worked. So that fall, I was like, all right, I want to dive full into sales. I'm going to stop thinking about creating content. I'm going to stop thinking about how to color grade better and do sound like I'm going to put all of that on hold, and I'm going to see, I'm going to spend the next six months learning as much as I can about sales because I think this is going to be the piece that's going to unlock in the years of success. I was talking to the owner of this coaching program, and I was like, hey, man, I really want to learn more about sales. Can you teach me everything you know about sales? And he was like, yeah, great, why don't you start taking all my sales calls for me and like practice selling something that you haven't sold before, and then you can apply all those skills to your business. Because sales in itself, like, it doesn't matter. People that are really good at sales, you can sell anything because it's like, it's frameworks, it's questions, it's finding solutions. So I'm like, okay, great. So he uh, he gave me a script and we did some practice sales calls, and then he got me looped into his sales system. He was running Facebook ads, and he got me on calls with coaching clients. And in one month, I think I sold nine or $11,000 us worth of commissions. Thats my income for a month. And I was taking six calls a day, three days a week, and then doing my video business stuff on the side.

Six calls a day, three days. Yeah, it was intense. It was like in the deep end, talking to strangers. Like, how do you build trust? How do you sell them something? I, uh, had different pages open and it was quite intense. And they talk about when you get to sales of that level, it's like a battlefield, right? And you're on these calls and you're 45 minutes into the call and you're asking them questions and diagnosing problems, and now you get to price, and it's like you've just invested the last hour and this person's on the fence, and how do you get them over that fence? And, uh, all these kind of different tactics that I've been talking about on this call, that's when they really come into play. And I did that for a couple of months and then in that period. So that was kind of the more formal mentorship, if you will, on the sales front from this guy. But then on my own time, I was like, great, that's easy. Because those calendar appointments were getting put on my calendar through somebody else's online ad system. I need to learn how to get those for myself. I'm not running a complex ad system. So I was like, let me start cold calling. And nothing makes you more uncomfortable than dialing complete strangers.

I was going to say, every creative is the worst nightmare right there. Yeah, I was like, great, I'm going to start cold calling. But the point of the cold call is just to set a discovery call. That discovery call I was chatting about earlier, I'm not trying to sell them anything, I'm not trying to do anything complex, just trying to get them to book a call with me. And cold calling is actually, believe it or not, it's the quickest way to do so. Like, if I'm in a pinch and I need to, like, make some cash, like, I could send emails, I could message people on instagram, or I just start calling people and just. I have a bit of a funny way that I do it now. And we should dive into cold calling because I actually genuinely believe that anybody that runs a business, if you can get in the practice of cold calling, you will annihilate any anxiety that you have around tough conversations. When you force yourself to do it. Like, it is so uncommon, ridiculously, uh, uncomfortable. I remember the first time doing it, I was sounding like an idiot. I was, like, shaking, and they're like, you can take me off your list. And I'm just like, what makes you think you're a telemarketer?

Right. What's the worst experience you've had with that? Ah. Oh. I had one guy. I cold called this, like, solar power company. I went through this phase where I'm like, I want to make these sick videos for commercials and for these solar powered companies that are blowing up. And the guy was, like, so upset with me. He was just like, you know, all you effing guys, like, just, like, calling me out of the blue, like, thinking that, you know, da da da da da. Uh, he's just like, he's like, the last guy called me. He's, like, so expensive. He was gonna charge, like, $1,000 to make this video, and I was just like, oh, okay. And he was, like, personally offended. And I'm just like, okay, man. Yeah, he was really upset. I've had people be like, don't call me anymore. Take me off of your list. Like, I'm not interested. People just, like, hang up, and it's uncomfortable. Right, of course. But it's. It gets you over that fear of rejection. It's like what I've said to you. But how many no's can you get by the end of the day?

Yeah, right. And it's hard because, like, you can have a script, but that all goes out the window when somebody's on the other end of the line and. Yeah. Um, my biggest advice if you want to start cold calling is, like, just say, like, just do, like, ten a day just as a practice, and, you know, there's different ways that you can go about it. My favorite is acting like a confused old man.

Oh, wow. Um. Okay. Do you want to hear about that? Yeah, please tell me more. It's called the confused old man. And it's essentially like when you're on a cold call, you're trying to book an appointment so you want to sound as least confronting as possible. So I would call them, and depending on who you're calling, right. If you're calling a receptionist, then you're trying to get through. If you're calling the owner, or let's just say it's like you have the person's phone number. Most of the time, you won't. You're just trying to get through. Sometimes the best way to get past the gatekeeper, as we say, like the admin assistant, despite sounding like a confused old man. Uh, so I would call them and say they're like, hello. And I'm like, uh, hey, how are you? And they're like, great. How can I help you? And I'm like, um, yeah, I don't know if you're the right person to help me out with this, but I'm trying to. For the life of me, I can't find it online. But I'm just trying to get clear on who in your department would be, like, who handles marketing inquiries for new partnerships. You can feel that, right? Like, it's not.

Yeah. And then. Because then they're like, oh, that's Tammy in the brand department. Like, it's not like, hey, I'm Ian call from Cedar and Spruce films. I'm, um, looking to sell you something. Like, who's the best person to talk to? Like, you don't want to come off sales. You want to come off, like, you're just trying to connect to. And most of the time, that will trigger, like, a helpful response out of them. That's why they call it the confused old man. They're like, let me guide this person in the right direction. And a lot of the times, they'll patch you through, or they'll give you the person's email.

Hmm, that's hilarious. I've never heard of that before. But it makes a lot of sense because it just takes. It's a reframing of the energy, I guess, or the. Yeah. Uh, just the sales feeling goes away in that moment. There is sales happening. It's just a confused old man.

Um, there's another way, which is the complete opposite, which I personally don't like, which is if you know the person's name, like you know the director's name, you can. If they're, like, a big shot, you just talk to them like you already know them and they're already expecting your call. I haven't tried that. I'm not, not a big fan of the energy behind it, but you could be like, they could pick up and they'd be like, patch me through to Bill, please. And they're like, what? Like, hey, uh, it's Ian, patch me through to Bill. Like, as if you've, as if you've been patched through 100 times in your past, and they're like, oh, okay, sure. And then they just patch you through because you sound important. I'm not a big fan of that. Not my style. I prefer, like, the non invasive, confused old man.

Closing Deals

Yeah, that's great. I like that. Okay, so you get patched through. Uh, yeah. Now, we've talked about the sales call and that process. If they object on price, now let's talk about closing that. How do you close on that?

So let's just say you've gotten through to the right person. Whether it's cold calling like we talked about, whether it's reaching out to people, whether it's going through, like, affiliates or, like, network, but, uh, okay, whatever. Whatever that initial touch point was, you've landed on your first call. You've had a successful first call. You've diagnosed some problems. You've talked about a solution. Now you're like, okay, great. It's called, like, ask. You want to ask for the sale? You literally say to them, like, rather than being like, I have a solution for you. Here it is. You literally. It's called soliciting the sale. Like, hey, um, given everything we've gone through, are you interested in talking about next steps of what it would potentially look like to work together? Because you're giving them the consent now to say yes. The second they say yes, they're expecting a pitch. Like they're expecting something. Right. And at that point, a big mistake that people make is say, great, you know, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna sit down, or let's just say you're at home. I'm gonna go off and, like, I'm gonna write down my ideas, I'm gonna put together a proposal for you, and then I'll send it off to you. And then they usually go, great, looking forward to it. You send off a proposal, and it's like crickets. So I do it two ways. And it really depends on the type of client, depends on how much trust is built in the process. But generally speaking, I try to avoid sending proposals over email, and it's because you can't overcome any more objections, like, they might not be completely sold on it yet. And if you just send an email and they're like, oh, uh, it's too expensive. You can't be like, why is it too expensive? Is there a way? Are you considering somebody? You can continue to overcome objections? So what I say is, okay, great, I'm going to go home. I'm going to put together a proposal. Can we set a meeting for Tuesday and walk through the proposal together? So that way, if you have any questions, we can just jam on it in person and, uh, just tell them. This is typically how I work. I don't send proposals. Like, tell them, like, I don't send proposals over email. I always walk through all my prospects. So that way, if there's any questions that come up, we can handle them on the spot. And then they go, great. So I set the appointment. I have the proposal ready. I, uh, literally, and this is kind of weird. At first, I literally read it to them. Like, I'm reading, like, a story. Like, I literally am, like, great, cool. And then same thing. On the proposal call, it's like, set the frame. Be like, hey, so and so, you know, thanks again for taking some time to connect. We had a great call last week. I was able to go home and really figure out what I think could be valuable for your company to help increase your letitia, uh, whatever the problem was that you identified, they're having, I put together a proposal. It's really straightforward. It's a couple of pages, just going to outline some scope, objectives, and then, honestly, a price that I've attached to it, and then answer any questions that you might have or any more concerns about the project. Then does that sound good? And they're like, yes, great. And then you just go through it and you're like, so here's, you just go through it page by page. And I try to keep proposals as simple as possible. And again, I make them results focused. So, like, here's the objectives of the project, and you're literally listing in the sales call, you should have been writing down their problems, because now in the proposal, you're like, here's the objectives. And the objectives are the exact opposite of the problems that they're having a. So if they've talked about how they have low social media reach or they have a hard time recruiting high quality talent, I'll, uh, literally, under the objectives, it'll be like 1234 to increase the likelihood of attracting high quality talent, because now on their end, you're literally like, boom. These are like, the four main problems that we're having. And he's literally putting a proposal in front of me that's talking about these four problems, right? And it's like, you go over the objectives, and then the scope is literally just like, the scope is the solution. It's like, great. We're gonna have. We're gonna create a five minute brand piece. We're gonna give you 25 photos. We're gonna give you, you know, five social media pieces, right? You're gonna. And then on the next page, it's like, here's pre production, production post. Just because it's important to outline, like, a little bit of everything, of, like, what they're getting. So then it's like, there's no questions. Like, I'm not sleazy. I don't hide anything. I'm like, here's everything you're getting in pre production. Here's everything you're getting in production. Here's everything you're getting in post. And then here's the whole process. It includes editing. It includes voiceover. Like, whatever you decide on is valuable or whatever meets the project purpose. And then on the next page, uh, this is probably something that might weird people out. I don't provide a price breakdown ever, unless they ask. Because when you're creating a package for a small business, like, for me, where, like, you know, I'm probably doing most of the work, this is like, it's a bit of a different conversation, but it's value based pricing, because we are leading from a place of, like, there's a problem in your business that's worth a large amount of money that if they fix, they're going to make, you know, ten x more money. This is just, like, now capturing a small percentage of that success. So, like, I don't know. In my mind, I might be like, okay, like, I need to bring on two people. So, like, here's the day rates. You have a general idea of, like, how much, how many, what your expenses are and how much you want to make. The reason you don't put that out there is because then they have the opportunity to start picking them away. And I know that this is different in the traditional production world, where it's like, here's all the expenses, and then, like, add 20% to 30% for the studio, and, like, that's their profit. But I reversed it because you can make a hell of a lot more money as a solo filmmaker or photographer with value based pricing, because you've set up the entire engagement to be focused on providing a solution to their business. They don't care what your day rate is. They're like, heck, if this video is going to help convert five more clients, that's going to bring this company multimillions of dollars. Like, what's $15,000? Like, at that point, they're not even thinking about penny squeezing you because you've taken them through a proper diagnosis, and they're concerned. They want to make more money. And it takes the shift away from, like, well, what if we just have one shooter versus two? Great. What? You knock off a $1,000 now? Oh, we don't want five social media pieces. We want two. And then it's ways that people can, they start slashing the budget down. Right. And that's a bit of a slippery slope. So I don't provide a cost breakdown unless they're, like, adamant. If they're like, hey, look, our finance, our accounting team will not approve this unless there's, like, a, uh, detailed breakdown. Then you would. Then I would provide it. But you have to be careful when you're doing that to be like, what am I prepared to cut? Because they might want to cut things. So how you lay the numbers out, and it's funny because, like, probably shouldn't say this, but, like, I've literally had, like, producers on the other end be like, the total number is fine, but can you just, like, move that number over here so our accounting department will approve it? And I'm like, really? They're like, yeah. Can you just, like, take. It was like, a couple thousand dollars of the studio fee. And can you just, like, put it under the director's fee?

Yeah. Or some lighting? Like, yeah, I'll admit that, too. Like, I had to do that, uh, on a recent shoot as well. I got the same thing. I was like, well, uh, I'm putting it under lighting because no one knows what that is, so. And, yeah, it doesn't. I don't know. That's just the politics of the back end of how it works. And so it is what it is.

It kind of goes back to my point earlier, where it's rarely about the money. It's usually a policy. It's usually like, I had a client once be like, they're like, we just can't move forward without, like, a net. It's a net 30 final invoice or something where other people are like, just send me the invoice. I'll pay it. They're like, it has to be net 30 or we can't sign the contract.

Right. Sometimes it's just weird systems like that in companies or some other reason as to why they can't hire you. But I've heard of scenarios where people will walk in and companies will be like, my dad is a master of sales. He'll go in, and originally the company will be like, great, we've got $30,000. We want to do this piece of work. And then at the end of the call, and they're like, we only have 30 grand. And then my dad will, like, dig up a whole bunch of new problems that they didn't know they had through his questioning, and next thing you know, they went and found 50,000 more dollars. And you're like, huh, huh. Interesting how just all of a sudden when the problems grew, they're able to just, like, contact the finance, be like, hey, we need more money, or contact. So it's, like, rarely about the money. It's about, uh, the problems that the companies are facing. So that's just the biggest takeaway. So in order to close these deals, kind of circling back to your question, take that proposal call, because you will save yourself a lot of time and energy wondering if they're ever going to get back to you. Once they don't reply now, it's really hard. Like, rarely are you going to follow up two to three times, and they're going to be like, yeah, project approved. There's some reason why they're not moving forward. Some cases it is money, but in my experience, a lot of the times, it's other things disguised as budget, and they just don't want to be rude, they don't want to hurt your feelings. They don't want to tell you the real reason why. So they just, like, not in the budget, and people take that as face value, and it's the biggest price objection that a lot of people get. But, yeah, I mean, m sometimes people are cheap, sometimes companies are cheap, and sometimes they don't see the value, and that's okay. And you kind of just have to move on and continue on to the next one.

Solving Clients’ Problems

Yeah. And the next thing that comes to mind is, for me, when I hear all that, like, I, yeah, I think a lot of creatives struggle with what is the, how do I solve their problem? So you're talking about this stuff like, it's obvious to you, and I struggle with this specifically because I'm like, well, yeah, as a creative, we want to just focus on our art, and, like, you know, as a cinematographer, photographer, we just want to be like, cool. I can make you beautiful images that look like this, that looks, like, similar to my portfolio, and they're not really interested in the process of, like, the end goal. Uh, so much. So I think you're basically asking everyone to reverse their mindset, which is really hard. Which is really hard. So then how do you get interested? Or how do you figure out, how do you get interested in solving the problem and then come up with ideas in order to solve the problem? Because that's not a natural thing.

Yeah, it's interesting because it depends on the type of videos that people are doing. Anything brand related is much harder to track the success of it as well. If you're in the video advertising world where you're creating social media ads, that's a different story because that's a lot more easy to measure the success of it be like, hey, we created this video. It got 250,000 clicks, which resulted in this many sales to Lou the Lemons ecommerce page. You can track that whole journey, but when you're trying to sell a commercial or a vision where that's more creative and more conceptual. Right. Like, you can't just be like, oh, we're going to get you hundreds of thousands of views because, like, we don't know. We don't actually know if that's true. But what we do know is true is like, trying to figure out, this is where you're like, I don't want to say try to find problems that aren't there, but it's like you have to dig deeper with questions and that's the only way to do that because, like, there's a problem everywhere. And sometimes it's like, not the problem that you originally think they have. Right? It could be like recruiting. It could be like, hey, we're going to make a commercial for this brand and maybe the entire goal is like, hey, they just need more visibility. Maybe they need more engagement on Instagram specifically. Maybe they're getting some, like, negative word of mouth on previous ads, so they want to, like, go in a different direction. So now it's like, let's just like, that could be their target. They're literally like, look, we've been getting, like, really negative feedback on the type of branding that we're doing, the type of videos that we're creating, and we want to go into it. We want to move in a slightly different direction.

Rather than just saying, great, I can help you move in a slightly different direction. It's asking questions like, okay, well, talk to me about what you mean by going in a slightly different direction. What's not working now and why? And then they'll start to give you answers, like, oh, it's just like, not connecting. Why is the current videos that you're putting out, why is it not working? Well, we don't know. I'm, um, like, okay, well, let's dissect it. And this is that dissection process. And you just keep asking, you just keep digging deeper and deeper and deeper, and eventually you'll land on something of substance where they're like, yeah, I think that the type of content is just way too flashy on the editing. I think people are just completely disengaged with this style of content. We used to produce content that was a lot slower and had more beautiful scores, and we sold a lot more running shoes. And you're like, okay, cool. So now you've gotten to a really specific problem that they don't think that the style of video is working. Now it's about positioning your skillset to solve that problem. So it's kind of like now you're trying to paint the picture of great. So let's just say in a perfect world, you hired us, we produced something for you that would more mimic the success you had in the past. Is that something that you guys would want to consider talking further about? And they're usually going to say yes, because now we've identified that the reason they think it's not working is because of visual style. Now it's really easy to position our services as the solution because now it's like we just have to talk about what got them that previous success and then just create a, create a project that mimics that. Now you can sell a vision, you can sell a, uh, creative concept. You can be like, let's do a big new social media campaign. Let's shoot a whole bunch of new things, and like, you're all just like, bringing it back to that, that issue that they want to solve. Otherwise, they might just hire you. If you go create something quick and flashy, it's not going to create a result for them. They're not going to come back. And I know it sounds like I'm, um, making it sound simple and it's more nuanced, but the more specific of a problem you can get, it's not about, like, your video services are the solution. It's like your position, positioning it as the solution, the same way that you can position web design to create this. Like, if someone's e commerce isn't converting, you could come at it from a web perspective. You could come at it from a user experience perspective. You could come at it from a copywriting perspective, a social media perspective, a photography perspective. Like, there's so many ways to solve website conversions on, like, Lululemon's website or Arc'Teryx's website. There's a variety of ways that you can do it. So this goes back to that. Like, hey, if you can sell, you can sell graphic design as the solution. If you have the skillset to do that, obviously don't sell them something you can't deliver on. But this is where it's like, it's so easy to attach a service to a problem. Like, once you've identified that problem, but if there is no problem, it's like, hey, I just make cool shit. Hire me.

Yeah. Which is, I swear, that is what 95% of creatives do, right? And it's just like, here's my beautiful portfolio, hire me. Like, let's stay in touch. Hire me. Like, let's grab a coffee. Hire me.

Exactly. Yeah, I think that's what I'm, so what I'm hearing is, it's like, finding the problem is number one, and by how to find the problem is by asking really good questions. And so once you have really good questions, you have data to work with and you can go back and create a solution for that and then use kind of the process that you spoke about with specific techniques and all the nuances that we kind of spoke to in that. Is, uh, that what I'm hearing?

100%, yeah. It's really a mindset shift. It's completely shifting to business. And I know it's hard for a lot of creatives, um, myself included, at times to just, like, you just want to make something really cool, but if you're not out there selling like that, somebody else is. Right? Like, think about all the ad agencies, right? How many people, like, you're like, oh, man. Like, how many times have you thought, like, I could probably just go direct a client into a better job? But the ad agencies are out there. They have sales reps, they have creative directors. They're out there diagnosing problems and positioning their services as a solution. Now they're higher up in the totem pole. They're on a multi six figure retainer where, how many? Not to crap on ad agencies, but I'm sorry, a lot of time, they just create more problems being the middle person than just a really talented team of you and I could go out and create a really good product that really helps a business with a problem. But if we're not out there implementing these skills, then other people are. The ad agencies are bigger, production companies are like, sales and business development will win over a fancy, fancy product any day. Which is why so many DP's and photographers, they end up making day rates because the company literally views them less than the problem solver. It's like you're getting hired to make something pretty and you're going to make $1,000 a day.

Mhm.Or the people that are actually hiring us, they're the ones that are making way more money because they're problem solvers, 100%. They're in the business of solving problems and helping them grow. But we can do that as solo creators and make a lot more money and make a much deeper impact and build a long term relationship if we can really start to master these skills.

Yeah, 100%. And I think that's something I realized on, uh, my journey is like, you know, at one point I was just like, okay, I just want to be a cinematographer and focus on that, which totally works if that is what you want to do. But you need to be freaking crushing it when it comes to, like, the level of work you're putting out, you know, the amount of jobs you're getting, all the, you know, because you're only making day rates at that point. And then obviously there's a rental income side. That's a whole other conversation. But I think ultimately the margin comes from, like, playing production company and a lot of, yeah, this is another big conversation. It's like, do you want to wear all the hats or you don't want to be a specialist? I think in the beginning, though, you kind of do have to learn all of these things. And it doesn't matter if in the end you do want to just be a cinematographer, just be a photographer. Like, selling is selling. You still need to find the directors and creatives that are going to hire you in the first place. So nonetheless, this is very important, uh, to understand this stuff and unpack it. And I hate to say it, but creative, just, they hate this stuff. And because, I know, because I'm one of them.

Yeah, dude, I don't, I don't love it too. It's interesting, like, how, when you start to do it more and more, though, and how natural it becomes, it becomes far less stressful because you now have a skill set that can get you out of a jam whenever you need it. And I, I've had that, man. Like, I've had, the economy has been so up and down over the last few years, and I've had months where I'm nearing towards the end of the month, and I'm like, man, I got to make some moves. I got to do something here. I'm like, well, I know I can sell. I don't want to. I'm tired. It's raining 100 day. I have no motivation, but I'd love to pay rent. It'd be great. And so many people are in that scenario where they're just living, they're just scraping by, and they're sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. And I'm just like, it's also empowering because it gives you an element of power, um, and control over the process. And here's one thing that I'll say, is that if you start doing this regularly, even when you're busy or even when work is slow, the leads start to really cross over over time. And this is one, I know we're at bumping up an hour and 15 here, but one thing that I started to notice when I did this was like, okay, so you're opening up these conversations, and then, like, every couple of months, like, you're also following up and circling backwards different people. So the longer you do it for, you start to really build up a longer term system that, okay. And then now it's like every couple of months, you're talking to more and more people, you're building more relationships. Maybe you're following up, maybe it's not the right time, but you kind of have more of an ongoing list of conversations that you're having. And the more conversations you're having and the more calls you're having, a, you're going to get them so much better, but b, you're just talking to more people and recognizing that it's not always the right time, but now you're knee deep in work, and that person you were talking to six months ago contacts you because they really enjoyed the conversation that you had. Right? They're like, hey, you helped us really, you know, solve, identify a couple of problems. We're finished. The new website build. We're ready to move on to content. What does that look like?

Yeah. And so many times it's about timing. Like, yeah, you can build a great relationship, but, like, yeah, there's no need for your solution yet. And so it's just about maintaining that. And I think that's a huge, a huge piece as well as I think a lot of people just want instant gratification. It's just like, okay, I want to make the call, and then I want them to be perfectly ready for my solution, you know, to the thing. And, you know, man, I say, like, most when I look back at most of the work I'm getting right now, like, those were like multi year relationships before anything even transpired. You know, it's just like I had to, you know, stay in touch and, you know, just whatever. Like you said, your, your example of Dave or Bob, I don't know who.

You use, but, like, Dave, some generic white guy. Yeah, I think this is really important. Yeah. Numbers, you know, being that it's a numbers game, the more conversations you have, the more swings you have at the bat, the more balls you're going to hit. And, uh, ultimately, it's a long game. So I think that's just really important for creatives. But I do really love the last point you just made, is that it empowers you if you have this sales, if you can look at this and not wait for your phone to ring, because that's the, that's the thing I continually talk to creatives about or hear from them is just like, man, it's so slow. Economy sucks. Just like, I don't know what to do. Rent's coming up. You just named all the issues and they have no power. Whereas it's like, if you can step into this sales side of it and be like, look, I can just start picking up phones and making calls. And, no, I do not want to do this, but I have to. You know, I have to. Isn't always about what you want to do. If I want to grow this business and I want to be creative, that means I have to get good at this stuff too.

Exactly. Like, what do you want the stress of, like, having to take calls or calls? Or would you rather have the stress of, like, where's rent going to come from? Right? And I remember having those decisions where I'm just like, all right, neither of these are fun. Nobody likes being stressed about money. I also don't want to have to get up and make calls and do the kind of footwork. But it's like, what sucks more? I'd rather do this over here. Um, and almost always I'm like, why don't I do more of that? And, man, you'd be surprised how quickly it can start to work. And sometimes it's like, open up the computer, go find a company that is an industry that's like, here's what I would do. If you're listening to this and you're like, hey, okay, this is great. How do I implement this? What I would do is pull up a Google pull up a spreadsheet and say, okay, I'm just going to go make a list of 100 companies that are within a two, uh, hundred kilometer radius of me and think about pick five industries that thrive in recessions and if you don't know what those are, google them. Google Industries that thrive in recessions and then don't reach out to local coffee shops, they don't have money to pay you, they're selling coffee and reach out to them and then be like, okay, great. Here's a list of five industries that are doing pretty well. They're relatively modernized. Meaning, yeah, I can see a little bit of marketing here and there. Their websites are kind of up to date, but they don't have a ton of social media photos or like, maybe they need new headshots, maybe they need a brand video, maybe they need a couple ads. Just start typing in architectural firms Vancouver or direct to consumer brands or ecommerce brands. Go into chat GPT and be like, give me a list of ecommerce brands under this many employees or in this industry and just start making lists and then going on their websites and okay, like, here's ten companies that are in Vancouver or whatever city you're in and these are ten companies where they don't have a company brand video or they don't have a main promo piece. I think they could benefit from a 92nd piece because going back to this, it'll increase brand trust, it'll attract higher quality talent, it'll position themselves as a higher quality, luxurious brand because now they have this fancy commercial on their website and then reaching out to them and making the calls and sending emails and being like, hey, I noticed you don't have this thing. In my experience, when companies have these, and here's a list in your industry that do have it. In my experience, these are some of the problems that you guys are facing. Are you interested in getting on a call and chatting about how we can help you work through these? Don't be afraid to call up. Uh, if you see a problem, call it out. They'll appreciate that. Then that will start to kickstart the whole sales process. But if you start emailing ten people a day to the right person or you start making ten dials a day, by the end of the week, like you could have had, you get 50 people and now it's a numbers game, right? Let's just say you message or call ten people a day. So let's just say in a month you can have 300 touch points and even if like 15, 20% get back to you. That might be 20. I don't have the math on that. Even if it's 2025 people a month now that are kind of interested, you take them all through your process and lets just say 10% of them buy or are actually interested. Its just a numbers game. So you’re like, hey, if I want to work on one new project a week, that means you need to close four deals a month. Just start to reverse engineer it. Okay, well, to close four deals, I probably need to talk to 20 to 30 clients, serious clients. To get to 20 clients, I probably have to reach out to 100. Okay, great. Well, how do I reach out to 100 people? And then you just start reverse engineering, like, okay, great. And you work your way backwards. And that's what I did for, man, I did that for like two straight years. Um, I'm a lot more referral based now, and I think because my sales skills are, I'm a lot more confident. I'm okay talking to fewer people to have a higher success rate of closing them. But in the beginning, I would, after all the work that I was doing, shooting, editing, working on client stuff, like going to the gym, hanging out with my wife or a girlfriend now wife, I would sometimes it was late at night and I hated it, but I'd sit down and I'm like, I got to send my ten emails, right? Or I got to make my ten calls, and I just did it. And you start building up a pretty big catalog of now new touch points that you didn't have in the past. And it, uh, feels like work because it is.

But it's a good point. It's the only reason that I was able to get to that next level. And then you have, you know, I have the skills forever. So it's a skill set that once you have it, it's like night and day.

Yeah, I think that's just such a good point, too. Is like, it feels like work because it is and it sucks. And, like, I mean, I think that's, uh, one point that I am guilty of as creative. I want it to feel fun and exciting and all these sorts of things, but, like, yeah, you know what? Like that, that's the result, I think, of the work of doing the grunt up front, which is the. Yeah, the other, the bits that we don't like. Sure. If you want to just go, like, play with the camera for fun, we, uh, call that a hobby. But it's like, if you want to do this for a living, you know, we call it work. So, yeah, there's so many amazing points you've gone over today. I really appreciate you diving into your process. You know, some of the things you've uncovered with all your. All the reps you've put in over the years. I think this is a really valuable conversation for so many creatives out there. They need to hear this, and I know they don't want to hear it. So I apologize as well. Sorry for this podcast.

I know.Um, but it's the reality. Yeah. I'm just glad you have found a way, and I think that we're, you know, thanks for being the guy who's excited about this, because not many people are.

Yeah, no, I started to fall in love with it so much to the point where it's funny. Like, I. I would be like, oh, sweet. Like, I just sold, like, three projects this week, and then the first thing that would dawn on me is like, oh, man. Like, now. Now the actual work begins. Like, now I have to actually deliver the project. Here's where the stress really starts to kick in, because now I. To deliver something.

Well, that's a good problem to have. So you're. Yeah, I, uh, think most people welcome that problem. So 100%.

I'd rather be busier.

So just, uh, as we begin to wrap things up, is there. Where do people go to find you, you know, if they want to stay in touch or ask you a question or anything like that?

Yeah. So I would say my instagram is the best place. Ian coll media. I a n m c o l l media. One thing I will say is that it's, I don't actually post a lot of my work there anymore because I don't use my personal social media for. As a business generation tool anymore. But that is me. I talk a lot about entrepreneurship and health and wellness and personal growth and all of the things that go with that. So you won't really see my work or me. M talking about photography or video from that way. But, yeah, feel free to hit me up or dm me if you have questions about this stuff. My company is Cedar and spruce films, so if you want to look more into what I produce and the type of work and how you can apply that, it's cedar spruce films.

Ca awesome. Well, thanks, Ian, for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. Loved having this conversation, and I am, um, stoked to get it out into the world.

Yeah, man, I'm excited. Thanks so much for having me. And, yeah, if you're out there and listening, get to work. You'll thank me later.

Okay, that was Ian call. Ian is such a great guy and someone who I see on a mission to help and inspire other entrepreneurs and creatives in so many different ways. What we talk about on this episode is a very niche part of what he actually does and I encourage you to check out his Instagram page to dive into more about the kind of down to earth real shit he speaks to. Again, his Instagram iancoll lmedia in efforts to continue to grow this podcast and help you make a living doing what you love. I have a request. I want you to dm me on Instagram marshal chupa and let me know what is the one thing you are struggling with most and why is it so painful? Learning what my audience is struggling with the most will help me dig deeper in future episodes with guests I bring on and ultimately help us all grow as a community. In future episodes, I will be speaking with photographers, cinematographers, directors, producers, reps, and anyone who has decided to take this ambitious leap of faith at making a life and a living behind the lens. Stay tuned and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app. And if you have 30 seconds, please leave me a star rating or ah, review if you heard something of value, I encourage you to share this episode with a friend and help them along their creative journey too. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on shotlist.