27. Bryan Sheffield | Executive Producer | Pricing & Negotiation
In this episode, Marshal interviews Bryan Sheffield, an Executive Producer at Wonderful Machine with a successful background in photography. Bryan specializes in guiding photographers, both new and seasoned, through complex pricing situations with clients. They explore valuable tips for creating quotes, common pitfalls in contract writing, and how Bryan and Wonderful Machine can assist photographers with pricing and negotiation on their next project. If you're eager to master the art of pricing and negotiation, this episode is a must-listen.
Episode Highlights:
2:40 Bryan's Story
6:04 What Does an EP's Day-to-Day Look Like?
8:41 Pricing in General as a Photographer
13:09 Pricing One Job from Another
22:06 How to Charge a $100,000 USD Creative Fee
24:14 Understanding Usage and Charging
25:45 Common Mistakes When Negotiating or Creating Contracts
36:22 Tricky Situations: Firm Bid and Variables
40:31 Wrapping Up a Job
46:25 Setting Your Creative Fee
55:26 Software for Estimates
58:43 Clients Who Set Their Own SOW
1:04:07 Learning More About Wonderful Machine
🔗 CONNECT WITH Bryan Sheffield
💻Website | https://wonderfulmachine.com/
🔗 CONNECT WITH MARSHAL
📸Instagram | www.instagram.com/marshalchupa 💻Website | www.marshalchupa.com 👥 Linkedin | www.linkedin.com/in/marshal-chupa-99a7921a8
📄 SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT
Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - www.shotlistpodcast.com
🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST
This podcast is all about helping emerging cinematographers, photographers, and directors navigate the challenges of making a life and a living behind the lens. From workflow to personal growth, creative vision to marketing, finances to production—every episode is packed with a wide range of topics to support visual storytellers in their pursuit of building a business and growing a career they are proud of.
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Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
I always ask for a budget. Do you have a budget in mind for this project? Nine times out of 10, they say no, and they're just seeking numbers. It's always good to ask that follow up question of like, do you have a budget range, you know, is this between 10 and 15 grand or is this between 45 and 60 grand, you know, like, That really is going to help define the, the creativity and the production that you can put into the project.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the shotlist podcast, where we talk about how to make a life and a living behind the lens. I'm cinematographer Marshal Chupa. And today I'm speaking with executive producer, Brian Sheffield. In this episode, Brian and I dive into what type of things photographers should be thinking about when putting together a quote.
What is commonly overlooked when writing contracts and things you might forget to bring up to your client? How to show your value and become a creative problem solver when the client pushes back on price? And how Wonderful Machine can help you with pricing and negotiation on your next job. Working with Brian in the past has been incredibly helpful when it comes to having someone by my side to navigate tricky client scenarios and feel confident with the pricing and terms I'm putting forward to my client.
I'm excited to share this episode with you as honestly, it's something we all need to work through and navigate on our journey here behind the lens. Let's dive in.
Well, Brian, thanks so much for coming on the shot list podcast. Happy to have you here. Hey, Marshall. Thanks so much for the invite. I'm glad to be here as well. Yeah, so I think we originally met, I had reached out through the Wonderful Machine website looking for some help with pricing and negotiation on a contract and, uh, you were the man behind the email.
Awesome. Yes. Very, very happy to meet you there and happy to be a help. A lot of times, um, photographers and videographers do reach out to Wonderful Machine and it turns into a great relationship like we have.
Bryan's Story
Yeah. So you're a executive producer, is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. I got that, that promotion, that title bump, um, the end of last year.
And but I also, if I go to your website, like I see you're an extremely well versed, uh, well vetted photographer as well. So maybe let's start there. And I'd like to hear a little bit of like your, your story coming into all of this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Happy to tell that. And you tell me if I'm getting a little too long winded.
I think like most photographers, I fell in love with it during college, started going to college for graphic design, realized, uh, you know, didn't have much of a, of a history and photography in my life besides snapshots with, with friends and musicians and bands, et cetera. And then in college took a couple of photo classes as prerequisites for the graphic design major quickly realized that I was much better at photography than graphic design.
Okay. And with the, with the push and the guidance of the, the department there, uh, switched my majors and took. Basically every single photo class available at the school, which was great. So yeah, then, then, you know, coming out of school, I feel like as a photographer, you're going to assist, you're going to digitech, or you're going to be a full time photographer.
You're going to do some other job while you're pursuing your full time photography career and that's exactly what I did. I managed a record label full time for about five years, not only managing the bands and the manufacturing and the marketing and the promotions, but also, you know, doing photography and touring with bands and working as like a A& R on the road, helping bands to do what they need to do through the days.
It got to a point then in my life where I was able to do photography full time. And I guess that was based on the money. And I was able to quit that, that job at the record label, um, and work on photography full time. And I was very happy to do that. I was living in Los Angeles at the time. And the arts and entertainment industry there is very, you know, established, right?
Every touring band comes through Los Angeles. That's where Hollywood is and where movies and, and music videos are made for the most part. You know, it was quite easy to be a photographer there. And do lots of different things within my purview of the type of photographer that I wanted to do. And I had tons of friends that were in art and photography, as well as design and painting and musicians and bands, et cetera, I started photographing.
A lot of music worked on a lot of album packaging and promotional photos for, for bands that gradually led into more lifestyle work for clothing and beverage and food brands, which that led into, you know, more and more commercial applications for advertising work for, for larger brands as well. Yeah. So it's very, very lucky to have that career.
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense hearing now that you came from managing a music label and like now stepping into the, you know, executive producer role, like you just shifted the shifted the genre in which you're managing all the bits and pieces. Is that right? Kind of thing. You've already had the brain almost for that.
Yeah, definitely. And I think that that's something that like I always had that very camp counselor production brain for. Yeah. Is timing and responsibilities and making sure that everything is in the right place to get the job done right and on time and on budget, not somebody, you know, the photography projects that I was doing that.
I was hiring a producer and I work with this amazing producer Wendy for forever. And, you know, even with the projects that when I was, you know, bringing on a producer. I was, you know, in a sense, the executive producer, I was overseeing the casting. I was paying all the bills. I was, uh, you know, all the checks were written in my name.
I was overseeing the, the hair and makeup wardrobe and the, you know, the locations, et cetera, and who the crew was. And sometimes to a fault, sometimes stepping out of the creative role of photographer and making sure that things were going correctly, going on correctly behind the scenes. How does that balance look like for you now with, uh, you know, obviously,
What Does an EP's Day-To-Day Look Like?
are you still shooting professionally and then you're balancing the EP role or what does that look like on a day to day?
Yeah, my work these days is 90 percent production work and about 10 percent actually behind the camera. Okay. For the last year. I mean, it's, you know, it's probably like two commercial shoots a year and a handful of editorial other projects. I'm in a really good place where I love doing the production work.
I'm doing. I love helping photographers. I like working with clients on, you know, project estimates and photographer recommendations. And then, you know, when the right project comes my way for photography, I'm very glad to take it. But it's, you know, I'm in a very lucky spot in my life where I'm not, you know, Hunting for those projects and shooting things that are maybe a little outside my wheelhouse, maybe something that I'm not perfect for, et cetera.
Yeah. I mean, that's a really good place to be though, is like using, I mean, executive producing sounds like the, yeah, the bread and butter of the foundation. And then you still get to scratch that creative itch every once in a while when the project really fits. So that's like, it sounds like a really cool place to be.
Yeah. And don't get me wrong. There's still tons of, you know, photography I'm doing that I'm not going to pay for as well. You know, whether that's, that's a self assigned projects or traveling with the family or, or behind the scenes on, on productions as well. Yeah, that makes sense. So it sounds like you kind of naturally fell into the EP role, so to speak, or gravitated towards it and it found you.
If you were trying to maybe overstepping how much producing or EPing you should be doing as a photographer, it just kind of came naturally. Yeah, I think I think it was a natural fit for me, you know, with with the experience that I've had working as a photographer and working with tons of different clients and different types of clients that want, you know, everything from like a quick little social media shoot to an elaborate, you know, two week advertising campaign, you know, working with those different clients and budgets and responsibilities and who's does what on set.
And then, you know, I think that it it certainly Yeah, did come naturally with that growth in my life. So I feel like pricing negotiation is usually one of the most challenging topics for photographers being that I think everyone, not everyone rather, but like creatives are naturally right brained humans.
And a lot of this logistical production, spreadsheet money negotiation comes from the old left brain quadrant.
Pricing in General as a Photographer
And so I'm curious, To dive into a little bit about, yeah, just pricing in general as a photographer, what are some of the things that commonly come up or that you saw maybe even in yourself as you began that a lot of photographers are struggling with?
So within my role at Wonderful Machine, a lot of my work that I do is consulting with photographers. Either they reach out and they want help putting together an entire estimate for a project, or they'll reach out and just, you know, want to To talk and get some groundwork to how they should, you know, navigate this, this client requests and what questions they should ask.
And then with those responses, you know, how should they move forward? And then other times, you know, they, they'll have an estimate worked up and send them my way for review, whether it's on the fees or quantity of days or licensing, you know, et cetera. You're absolutely right. I think, you know, without trying to sound disparaging, a lot of photographers today do not have agents.
And do not have a trusted network that they can go to, to ask questions. We're very happy to be a help with that. Um, you know, a lot of photographers work in their own silo, right? They they're, they're either on, you know, have a camera up to their face or they're working behind a computer. And then a lot of photographers want that separation, too, of the, the management and the business and the billing and the estimate creation and the negotiating versus just, you know, the air quotes.
I want to, I would just want to take pictures and I think that's great. I think that's phenomenal. You know, there's a, I know that, that a photography agent wouldn't have a job without a photographer. No photography producer would not have a job without a photographer. So, you know, That's one of our goals, a wonderful machine is to support a photographer in every aspect of their career.
But short answer, what your question is, is that you're absolutely right. Most times the photographers come to us with a question of what should I ask for a fee for this project? How much should I get paid? And, you know, that, that really depends on a myriad of things. But that's the, that's the number one question we get.
I'll be honest, when I found out that Wonderful Machine had that service offering, I was like, this is, this is a thing, like, you can get help with this stuff. Like, I just hadn't seen it really before, because ultimately, it is the role of the agent, so to speak, or rep. And without going down that route, I've heard many different stories, the pros and cons of that.
I can say from my experience working with you, That to be able to come with a very specific job and get help and then be able to kind of not worry about a future relationship, but just like, kind of like, Hey, I need help right now. This is a specific problem I have. Uh, I can pay you for that one thing and then, uh, come back when something else happens.
I think, uh, yeah, it's a pretty big deal. Amazing service, to be honest, and I and I had such a great experience working with you the first time helping me figure out some usage and writing the contract. And so, yeah, I think I just really appreciate that that exists. And you're very good at what you do.
That's great to hear. Thanks, Marshall. I really appreciate it. Yeah, a lot of, uh. Uh, you know, we work with photographers in that same way that you described, you know, kind of this like agent on demand, you know, whether it's a real quick, like 1 hour, how much should I, uh, how much should I charge for this or any helper in this building this estimate and then, you know, on when the photographer needs that help.
And so unlike an agent where they'll look, we, we do not take a percentage of your fee. We do not take a commission. We just charge you hourly rate by the project comes through or not. So then it's totally in the, the photographer's core, whether they want to reach out to us. You know, there's plenty of projects that you can put together on your own.
There might be a few instances where it's a giant project where you need. Need my help or you might be extremely busy and unable to, you know, focus your brain on on this client request or, um, you know, come to us with tricky licensing situation. We're always happy to help. And a lot of our our knowledge comes with the experience of.
Doing this for so long and seeing so many estimates, you know, seeing so many estimates per year that we either create ourselves or review for photographers or, um, you know, work on with, with clients, agencies and brands when they reach out and ask for numbers for a project and knowing what went through and what projects sold through the client and what actually happened versus what didn't and what clients wrote back and said, Oh, that's, you know, way too much money.
Oh, we don't have that budget for this. So yeah, a lot of that knowledge is that, and unfortunately there's, there's no. rate sheet for the world, right? Every fee is totally different based on God, so many things, including, you know, ultimately down to the client budget and what they have to spend for this one project they want to do.
Pricing One Job From Another
Yeah. I mean, that's the perfect question I'd love to ask you, though, is how do you begin to understand how to price one job from another? Because there's a million variables and I think that's a big question mark. A lot of photographers don't understand or DPS or directors or, you know, you name it.
There's so many variables. So how does one even begin to, like, what's your process? How do you narrow that down? Or where does that begin? Yeah, it all begins with the, with the conversation with the client about what they need for this specific project. Even if you've worked with that client before on multiple projects, I think it's always Best to get a try to get the full scope of this product, no matter how familiar are with it, you know, get the ins and outs, what do they need creatively?
What kind of production value? Are they seeking? What kind of deliverables do they need? How many final images? How many final videos? You know what the licensing is? How many images they want to use and for how do they want to use them? And for how long do they want to use them? And then what we see a lot these days too, is a lot of clients want a work made for hire, you know, a full copyright transfer where they own, where they have the ownership of everything you create morally.
I have no problem with that as well. As long as the, you know, photographer, the videographer is getting paid appropriately. I think that's fine. So. The first step is to get all those answers and figure out the full, full picture of what this client is asking for. And I always ask for a budget. Do you have a budget in mind for this project?
Nine times out of 10, they say no. And they're just seeking members. It's always good to ask that follow up question of like, do you have a budget range, you know, is this between 10 and 15 grand or is this between 45 and 60 grand, you know, like that really is going to help define the creativity and the production that you can put into the project.
You know, a gallon of milk costs a gallon of milk, but how many gallons of milk do you need for this project? Where are you shooting it? How many talent are there? What's the sign look like? How many days is this, is this production, et cetera. All those things are going to help be defined by if there is a budget or not.
Yeah. The money conversation is really funny one in the beginning. Cause it's almost like a, I envision like two guys, you know, Western style setting with their guns. Ready to who's going to draw first. It's like, who's going to say like, what the budget first, or like, this is how much I'm worth. Are you going to say the budget first?
And it's kind of this game of, I mean, how, how do you, how do you play that game? Usually when it comes down to, if they come to you and say like, Hey, what is, what is this going to cost versus you saying, well, what's your budget? Like. That's always a funny thing. Yeah. No, I think that's fine. I think it's a, it's a fine conversation to have, you know, the, the well versed ad agencies, the big ones, they're going to send you a creative deck and that creative deck mostly, most of the time will have the budget stated in it, or that will come in a separate email.
Like, Hey, we've remarked. X amount of dollars for this, is that good enough for this project? And I think that's wonderful. And that, you know, automatically tells you this, this agency or brand has done their due diligence. They know what they're talking about. They've done this sort of thing before. They've already earmarked these funds.
And then, you know, it's your responsibility to have a conversation with them still about what level of production is needed to execute this, what those final deliverables are. Um, what the timeline is for everything and then, you know, put together a responsible estimate with everything line item that ideally matches up to their budget.
But having that conversation of like, you know, who says a number 1st, I, I think that's fine too. You know, as long as your estimate is put together in a very legible way, where everything is, where everything is there to be understood by the client, and they can read it thoroughly and understand, you know, the complexity of things that are needed, you know, X amount of talent, here's how much wardrobe is going to it.
Here's these, you know, different types of the locations with description of the locations. Here's the line items that you may not think of client like, um, yeah. The crew that I need, the transportation I need, the rented equipment I need, the hard drives, the catering, the cleaning for the location after everyone exits it and it's a mess, you know, all those things I think are responsible to put into an estimate and are great for the client to see so they can, they can then say, Oh, yeah, this is, you know, why this costs so much money.
Yeah, and I guess it's a bit of a challenge if they're not willing to give a budget range in the beginning or they're playing that game, so to speak, like it's kind of a waste of time. Do you think to be putting together these big estimates? Because obviously if they had 10 grand and you're putting together a 70, 000 proposal, like.
It's not going to work. So is there any way to assess that out in the beginning through the conversation? Do you push to get a budget range before you're like, Hey, look, I could make you a budget, but I don't want to spend all this time if you know, or is there any way you can kindly negotiate that conversation?
You know, I do know a couple of photographers who will not respond to a client inquiry unless they There is a budget presented. I don't go by that rule. I think it's always best to, to figure out the client needs. I mean, they've reached out to the photographer or to wonderful machine as problem solvers to help them solve a problem that they have internally.
You know, if they could do it themselves, they would do it. They can't, so they need your help and it's your job to help them, or at least, you know, go through the motions of, of ascertaining what they need help with, and then how much that's going to cost, you I don't think it's a waste of time. I think at the very least it's, it's a, you know, a conversation with a client where if you're, you know, the example you gave of 70 grand versus 10 grand, like hopefully they'll come back to you next time.
But it's also a learning experience for that client, for you to show them like, Hey, this is, you know, what these things cost. And it's not all, you know, that 70 degree is 70 grand. It's not all your creative fee. You know, your creative fee is going to be a small amount of that. The rest of that is all the production that goes into it and all the tools that are needed to get the job done right, um, which the client should appreciate.
So if they don't have the money, you know, for that, there's definitely things you can do, you know, hopefully that can turn into a conversation of how to make the project match the budget, you know, with you still as the creator. And I think that that's a, that's a great conversation to have to, you know, ultimately like photography is a service industry.
Commercial photography is a service industry as much as it's an art form and you mostly go to art school for it. It's a service industry. We wouldn't have our careers without the clients that we have and we have to respect them and we have to treat them well. The people that you're talking to at these agencies or brands are going to go on to other agencies or brands.
And if they love you, they're going to continue to hire you at these other places they work at. We've seen that most people are last in position for about two years. And then they move up or they move, you know, people at agencies, then move on to, you know, uh, brand side, client side, and they're, they're working there and hiring directly.
So it's always good to stay on their good side. So I, you know, I, I think it's great to respect them, treat everyone with the respect that you would love. You know, entertain their questions, help inform them of things, you know, how, how licensing works, how like your, your fee is, is totally based on quantity of deliverables and how they intend to use them.
And for how long they want to use them, um, not just based on the day rate, et cetera. And I think that can only help you in the long run. The client has come to you because they like your work, but if you can impress them with your business skills. They're going to like you even more. I think. Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, that's a really good point is ultimately like, yeah, if you shoot them at the 70, 000 quote for a 10, 000 job, ultimately one, you're educating them, but two, you're putting yourself as like the, the best option for a future project.
If not that one that has a bigger budget. And I think it's way better to be in that position than trying to reel yourself down into something that isn't, isn't Creatively respectful or even possible from a production perspective, just to try to win the job. I think you'll probably lose respect in that conversation or, you know, from their, their point of view.
Yeah. And to be clear here, we're talking about like when the client has not provided a budget and you're saying, Hey, it's going to cost 70 grand. I estimate it's going to cost 70 grand to do this thing. And they're saying, Ooh, we only have 10 grand. Thanks so much. Have a good day. If in the opposite scenarios, when the client says, Oh, we have 10 grand for this.
I think it's rude to come back with a 70, 000 budget. That would be a waste of your time and energy. I think that's an easier email to send that says, I'm so sorry, this estimate is coming, you know, when I put pen to paper, it's coming out about seven times higher than your budget. Please let me know if some things can be adjusted in order to help, you know, your needs be met.
How to Charge a $100,000 USD Creative Fee
Yeah, that sounds like a nice, uh, nice way to frame it in verbiage. So, yeah. So, I mean, you deal with so many different types of contracts, different photographers. What do you see the difference being when it comes to someone who can charge, you know, 2, 000 for themselves a day or 100, 000 creative fee? What is separating the people who are making just scrape and buy as a photographer and then people who are like making absurd.
You know, multi six figure usage contracts and all that kind of stuff. I think that's the, it's your expertise as a photographer and it's how much you are needed to handle a project versus just wanted to handle a project. A lot of times that's based on the specialty and the type of photography, you know, like an outdoor adventure photographer, a venture photographer.
There's only a handful of those people in the world that are great at that job. So when a client needs one of them, it's not like they could call you or I to do it, Marshall. Like I can't. Climb a mountain and make a video, but I could take a portrait in a park. And so could you, and so could thousands of other people within 10 miles of us, you know, so it's, it's really the expertise of the type of photography that the client is looking for.
And then, you know, uh, It's the use as well. It's these, the dream clients for folks, right? Like the, the apples, the Patagonia, the car brands, et cetera, like these gigantic campaigns that these, these brands are doing, you know, once or twice a year, they're going to reach out to. The best people, so it comes from that expertise as to, you know, who's in the client's purview of who they want to hire.
And then depending on how the client, you know, plans on using the work, you know, whether it's broadcast or gigantic out of home campaign, you know, a global campaign that's going to drive the cost. Yeah. And I think a lot of people in the beginning have no idea how usage works. And so how do you even begin to understand that as a photographer, let's say you don't have access to you who, you know, I'm sure that's because one of the things you did help me out with you, I don't know what you did, but you went and figured out this many people, this kind of area asked all the right questions and came up with a number for me.
Understanding Usage and Charging
But for a photographer who doesn't. Has no idea about that. How do they go? How do they begin to understand usage and breaking that out and charging for that? That's a good question. And like we're talking about, there's no real magic formula. There's no like, you know, spreadsheet. There used to be some, some okay guides on the internet, you know, like, uh, Getty stock photography, uh, image, like a lot of photographers would search on there.
Like, Hey, how much is this image worth? If I use it for X, Y, and Z, um, photo quote was another one that used to be quite popular and pretty much up to date. Okay. Those things that have been a little antiquated and are outdated now. So the best way to figure out is figure out exactly what the client wants.
You know, like I said, how many, you need to know how many final images. Is it five or is it all content captured on a hard drive? That's needed to be known. You need to know how the client intends to license the work from you. You know, is this just, um, six months of, um, you know, social media and web collateral use, or are they doing a gigantic ad campaign, or do they want to own this?
Is this a full, you know, work made for hire, copyright transfer, where they're owning everything you create? And then, ultimately, too, you want to figure out, you know, From yourself, like how important are you to this job? Can someone else do this? Or are you the only person or one of a handful of people that can do this job?
Common Mistakes When Negotiating or Creating Contracts
And those, all those factors will certainly come into play when you, when figuring out what this cost could be. Yeah. And. What are some of the most common mistakes that happened for people when, when negotiating or creating contracts that you see that are maybe overlooked when they come to you? In overlooked in, in, in contracts?
You mean from the, from the client? I mean, anything. What are the most common mistakes in this process from a photographer? Like, Oh, I forgot to add in this line item. Or it's like, Oh, I didn't add in this part in the contract or just things that you've maybe saw commonly happen seeing so many different things.
Commonly happen. I've seen a lot of times is photographer estimates will not state at all what the licensing that's being granted to the client is. I see that very often, at least a couple times a month from photographers, you know, I tell them, Hey, I have no idea like how, how this is being used for how long, you know, I know how much you're getting paid.
But, you know, you need to state that you need to state that otherwise the client is going to use it in any way, shape and form possible and without having that that licensing agreement, or at least an estimate that that states that on there that that the client has signed, you have no legal recourse to come back to them and ask for more money at a later point.
So I've seen that a lot. I've seen a lot of other times to the photographers will get frustrated. Often and just kind of give him the things and just, you know, give a discount because the, the client is asking for a discount and the, and the photographer wants the job and, you know, that might be, uh, some client trickery, right?
We all as consumers, whether it's us as buying a coffee or, you know, a client, we all want the most we can get for the least amount of money possible. And hopefully that's like. You know, we, we want the best we can get for the lowest amount of money possible. But a lot of times I've seen photographers just bend after those, like, you know, calling questions like, Oh yeah, we're ready to move forward this, but we just need to drop 10 percent from the bottom line.
You know, the photographer will say. Sure, let's move this forward. Let's do this. But something needs to something needs to change. Don't just give a discount because the client is asking for a discount because every single person in the world asks for a discount. So something needs to be removed, whether it's, you know, final images delivered the licensing, you know, quantity of shoot days, um, et cetera.
Yeah, that's an important one, I think, because that happens almost every time. Because why wouldn't they try to get it cheaper? You know, at least from my experience, it's a constant thing that happens. And then, but to make sure you're showing the value that you're taking away, I think, is a super important part.
Because, yeah, the conversations I have with friends are constantly just like, Oh, yeah, give them a discount because, well, I wanted to win the job. But ultimately, if you're not showing The value decreases, uh, or what, what the offering they're getting, ultimately, you're just showing your less valuable in the world.
I mean, or how, how would you frame that? You know, it's kind of like decreasing your own value almost. Yes, exactly. And then, you know, we've seen this too, like clients will say, Oh, I'll get you on the next one. We're going to have another campaign in three months and we'll make sure we have the right budget then.
Like, you know, when does that ever happen? Right. Right. That's when is that guaranteed to happen? I think it's more appropriate to. To, you know, when this happens, when they come back and say, Oh, we need, you know, whether it's 500 or 10 percent removed, remove that from somewhere else and let the client know, you know, like there are things that you can put into your estimate to be able to take away later that are costing you kind of no money, you know, maybe it's a pre production day that you want to donate, or maybe it's the insurance line that you're already paying for.
If there's no like additional insurance needed, that's something that that can be removed. Maybe it's that, you know, first edit for client review where you're sitting down and dumping memory cards and culling and organizing and file naming and backing up and exporting this JPEGs for the client. Like maybe that can be donated to the project, but keep your creative and licensing fee where they were to let the client know that you're not just giving a discount on your, your, the value of your time and your expertise just because they asked.
Yeah, that's actually, I mean, so, I mean, those are some creative categories and I guess, is there almost not a strategy, but like buffering up the quote so that they can take away stuff and feel like it was a I think they took away stuff and they got that, you know, is that a strategy or is that kind of like, cause I find obviously if you, it's a habit or has been a habit of mine in the past to just make a bare bone, the quote be bare bones.
So there isn't any fat so to speak. And then when they asked to take away, you're like, well, if there's nothing we can take away. So maybe is there, is there a way to change that a bit? Yeah. I think that, that you're not alone in, in, in trying to make the estimate as slim as possible in order to get the job done.
Done. I see that a lot from photographers, and I don't think that it's always the case where the lowest bid is going to win the job. I think that a well versed client who knows what they're doing and is intelligent, a good art buyer at an agency is going to look at, of course, the bottom line, but every single line item and make sure that Everything there, everything is in there that's needed to do the job right the first time because no one wants to do it again.
So a good art buyers is going to make sure you have all the crew needs and you have all the, the travel and talent and locations and wardrobe and, uh, equipment. Of course, they're also going to, you know, with their cost consultants, check certain things, you know, like, why is this motor home X amount of dollars, but this other line item or motor home and another, you know, Uh, photographer's estimate is, you know, 500 more a day.
They're going to look at all that stuff too. So I, I don't think it's, it's wise always to make it as slim as possible. It's good to use round numbers because there's going to be certain variables too. It's good to have, you know, I've seen some photographers have a line that's just called like, you know, production variances, like, uh, you know, with a, a random number in there.
It's good to sometimes put products line items into the estimate too that are, you know, there to that can be taken away later. Like I mentioned, things that are not going to affect their creative. Or the things that you need, you know, it's like the, like I said, the first set of a client review or maybe hard drives that you already have that you can donate to the project, etc.
Maybe it's your, you know, your own equipment that is great to, to build for each day. But if you can provide a discount on that and still win the award of the job and make the client happy, then that's great too. Yeah. And here's a funny scenario that I came across recently. I was asked by the creative producer to hide.
Like, I had originally just been honest and be like, here's some like over like potential overages. Here's some like expenses that maybe occurred, whether that's like extra food, gas, things were not reoccurring. And she just came back to me and said like, Hey, the, you know, accounting doesn't like that. Or maybe not accounting.
Who, whomever doesn't like that. Can you just like hide it in some other line items? Like, you know, I was just like, she's like, you're being too honest. And I was like, okay, like, yeah, I'll I guess because you have no idea what all these fancy lights are that I'm buying all this put another light in or whatever, you know, so do you come across that often?
Not often, but I, I, I'm with that, our buyer on that or that, that client on that, I mean, it's to me, if you get an estimate that says like, here's some other random numbers for things that the unforeseen, uh, issues that come up, that's going to be a red flag for me if I'm hiring that person, because it's, it might seem like they don't know what they're doing a little bit.
Even though it's contingency, so to speak, like, is that a line item you use or? Well, I think there's a couple backing up a step. I think there's a, you know, clients will ask for like, uh, you know, or they will have a request for pricing on a project. And it's good to know, like, and good to tell the client, like, here's an estimate, or this is a firm bid.
And estimate being like, based on what I know right now, this is how much I think it's going to cost. If things change, the prices will change. At the end of the project, I'm going to wrap this all and show you the receipts and bill for actuals. And then there's a firm bid, which some production companies work on, which is just like X amount of dollars.
And if I spend less, I make more money. And if I have to spend more than I make less money, and those are the projects that are not fun to be on when you're being hired by that type of production company, because those are the ones where you're eating pizza and think people are running into overtime and there's no money for it.
And there's, you know, it's good to have. An estimate, I like to work on an estimate where you're showing the client exactly what is going into the project and what needs to be done to make the project a success. And within our terms and conditions, we state that there could be a variance, a 10 percent variance, but I always act that if it's going to go over that bottom line that the client has approved, I'm going to get those overages approved in writing ahead of time before I spend that money.
Yeah. So in my exact scenario, like I was. They needed a firm bid before the shoot started and they weren't open to paying anything afterwards because they're like, Hey, I need to know this budget so that I can hire so that I know I'm not going to go over and all my other categories, you know, the credit producer wanted to know that.
So I guess in that scenario where it's, it's almost like it has to be a firm bid, even though I know there's variables. Yeah. Was that the right way to go about it? Or I think if you're working on a firm bid as if there are a lot of things that you're not handling yourself, you know, if you're hiring a lot of external people and if you're hiring a lot of external gear and locations and talent, et cetera, that can be a big failure for the production company.
If it's a small job, like an editorial shoot, you know, those are always going to be like, Hey, here's this flat rate we have, like, make everything fit within this. That's just the way it is, and that's fine. And that's all easy to manage. But when, like you mentioned, there's so many variables, including potential weather delays or travel delays or, you know, wardrobe malfunctions, or we've seen it with, you know, youth and child talent that are having meltdowns or being sick.
You know, there's too many variables to take on that risk. And being able to sleep at night. Yeah, yeah, that was an interesting one because there was a weather day, uh, issue there and like, hey, what if, what if it is pouring rain? Like how, how much is this going to cost us to reshoot this or push it a day?
Tricky Situations: Firm Bid and Variables
And so my, I guess, approach was to write two different variable contracts with a weather day included in one of them. And I don't know if that was the right way to go about it. How do you deal with that kind of situation though, like weather days, if they're asking for a firm bid and you know, there's variables then deal with that.
Yeah, I don't, I don't think working on a firm bid is, is the best option in a case like that. And when there's that many variables, like, Oh, you know, kind of let the, let the client know that that's just not a, not a good situation that, that I want to be in, you know, because you're, you're taking on those risks.
And if they, if you are going to take on those risks, then you better charge a ton more money. And buffer things up for to have those possible contingencies, but like you mentioned, they don't want to see that they don't want to see that. Like, well, possible, whether whether contingency possible 2 year old meltdown contingency possible crash on the freeway.
Contingency. No one wants to see that. Ideally, a client wants to get things done. Hitting their creative and on time and on budget. And I think the most effective way to do that is a very transparent estimate that, you know, a good estimate to can also serve as a working guide for you and the client during the production as well of what is being handled and how much it's costs and what is being brought to set and provided, you know, with this like firm bid method, it's, Oh, I thought we're having nice catering.
And you say, Oh no, we can't afford another 500 reading pizza. So then how would I have responded correctly then in a scenario where I'm being like pigeonholed into needing to give a firm number, so to speak, but obviously there are variables like that. Like, how do you just say like, hey, look, this can't be a firm bid and potentially lose the contract or how would you negotiate that?
Yeah, I think that that's a really good case study for negotiation. What to do in that situation. I think it depends on the client and what your history with them is. And if it has to be a firm bid versus an estimate, you know, there's that there's that potential. There's too many variables to know, like, you know, what I would do hypothetically.
But yeah, just recently we had that conversation where we told the art buyer. No, like, we don't I don't want to do this as a firm bid because that's This is in a major city with a multi day production with way too many variables and the creative isn't fully fleshed out and the client hasn't awarded this project yet and we haven't had these creative calls yet.
Like, this is not possible to do in a firm bid unless you want us to double the budget, right? Yeah, so I think in your case, like, it's, it's, you know, have that conversation with them, just be transparent and honest and be like, Hey, you know, within this estimate, I'm saying that this is going to be the bottom line.
It's going to be no more than this unless I get your approval in advance. Okay. That's potentially, you know, you could get some money back, but in order to to do the job that you've outlined, this is how much I think it's going to cost. Yeah, I mean, that's almost I would say, if you can even throw in that word, you just said you might get some money back.
Then it shows that you're not trying to, I don't know, take them for more or whatever. You're just trying to be. Truthful, or just trying to make sure your bases are covered. So that's an interesting way to look at it. Absolutely. I think that there's that too, and making sure the client understands how your estimate is written.
I mean, we always advise and wonderful machine writes our estimates like this, like there's the creator's fee, which is not going to change unless the deliverables or the licensing changes. And then there's, you know, the crew day rates and then the talent day rates, et cetera. And then there's the. You know, all the hard costs, like the, the transportation and the airplane flights and the hotel rides and the, the taxis and the gear and hard drives and the post production, of course, those things aren't, aren't going to change.
But if all that stuff adds up and makes sense and it aligns with what the client is asking for, then they should have no problem, you know, signing that as an estimate. And then when you actually, you know, go to do this photo shoot in New York City and you, you save 50 on cabs. You can, you know, put that money elsewhere in the estimate, you can use that on, I don't know, an extra prop, et cetera, extra drinks at lunch or an extra coffee run, et cetera.
Right. So then in that case, are you like, at the end of the job, you're in the scenario where you're not set bid or other your plus expenses? What do you call that? Yeah, usually do creative and licensing fee plus expenses.
Wrapping Up a Job
So at the, when you wrap a job like that, are you then going to the client afterwards and saying like, Hey, here's everything we spent, receipts, everything.
And then just saying, this is where it landed. Is that, is that how you wrap that kind of a job? Yeah, exactly. Like a full wrap will include, uh, exactly what you said, you know, the final invoice from the photographer. The final invoice from the production company, every single receipt of everything that was spent all the invoices from crew and then, yeah, presented in a, you know, PDF document to the client with the estimate.
And like, we're talking about earlier with, uh, with, uh, Hey, here's this random number for potential unforeseen expenses or contingency expenses when you wrap that job and send that estimate to the client, you know, it's 100, 000 dollar production. You don't want to be. Six or eight or 10, 000 under because that's certainly going to show to a client like that.
You, uh, you were not prepared for this project. You don't estimate properly. So it's, you know, it's finding that that balance. But certainly, certainly everyone's going to be happy within a big, you know, 100 or 200, 000 dollar production. There's, you know, 2 grand or 4 grand or 5 grand. That's that's, you know, given back to the client.
Right, so yeah, fine line there, but ultimately making sure you still look like a professional in what you're doing, but then also if there is, um, yeah, something left over to show that you're not hoarding it or hiding it or something like that, so to speak, does that go further, I guess? It does. It goes further with the, you know, that transparency is always, uh, well appreciated with the client, right.
You know, to, to, to know that, you know, here's what went into it. I got everything I paid for and I have proof of that. And that, you know, we're, we're talking about these like multi hundred thousand dollar projects, right. Yeah. On a editorial shoot or a small project. Like, I don't think anyone's going to care about that type of stuff.
I had an electrician over at my house recently and he came over to fix one thing. And then while he was here, I said, Hey, you got this other thing going on. Can you do that? He said, yeah, sure. And then at the end of the project, he gave me the invoice and I paid it. And it's like 700. And it just said electricity service, 700.
And because it was 700, I had no problem being like, I was there. I knew what he did. I asked him to do the things, but it was, you know, there was nothing broken up of like, how much of this is his hourly labor charge? How much of this is, you know, any kind of like driving or mileage? How much of this is parts and expenses?
You know, I know he, he installed a couple of things that had to be purchased, et cetera, but it didn't matter to me really, because it was like, A small number. If I was getting electricity down from my entire house, and it said electricity services, 25, 000, I think we'd have a I'd want a bigger conversation.
I want to know, like, how many people worked on this? How long did it take? What parts were installed? Etc. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point to put in there that it definitely varies on the, the amount of money we're talking about, because ultimately if it's a 5, 000 job and they're trying to nickel and dime, you know, just, you shouldn't be working for them in the first place, I guess, you know, versus a multi six figure thing.
There's definitely a lot more variables going on. So that makes sense. Yeah, but I don't know if it's, you know, I don't know if I agree with you, that you should be working for them, you know, if they're trying to nickel dime you, I feel like a lot of times like a photographer could make the same fee on like a smaller project project than a larger budget project, depending on, you know, how much production is, is there generally, you're right.
Stereotypically, the lower budget projects are the ones with the bigger headaches where the client wants more and more and more. And doesn't have the money to pay for it. And it's more mostly demanding. I think stereotypically you're right on that, but, but I've seen it the opposite sometimes. So I think it goes back to how we were talking in the beginning of like, there's no waste of time in talking to a client or putting together an estimate, you know, it's, it's just the whole, like, You know, learning about the client and learning about what their project needs are and, you know, offering up your services as a creative problem solver, they want that ingenuity and artistic creativity from you and that's why they've reached out to you.
Yeah, it's ultimately like the art of business. Essentially, I guess that's what it comes down to. Yeah. And you're, you're selling a product. I mean, I feel like a lot of this conversation we talked about that. That's the main issue that, you know, we've been talking about here and that maybe you've seen in your career and that a lot of photographers have seen is like, you know, the client's budgets do not match up with their expectations.
And I, I do see that a lot and you're right. It is like, you know, that is, could be, you know, the, the art of business and the art of sales, the more experienced you are as a photographer, right? The more money you're making and probably the less you have to work because you're doing these gigantic projects, one every couple of months or one a month.
Where you're making, you know, ungodly amounts of money. And that's a situation where you're, you are in demand as a creator, right? People are waiting in line for you. You're not the, you know, the fifth person at the client has reached out and say, Hey, how much is this photography going to cost? I reached out to four other people.
I just, you know, I need photography by Saturday. How much is it? Yeah, I mean, that's the beat. That's the dream, right? That's the beautiful place everyone I think strives to get to. But ultimately, I think most of us are in the, you know, have to triple bid or here's a set rate that you know, that might not be as much as we you'd want or all that kind of those kind of scenarios.
So maybe that leads into a good question about the creative fees, though, is like, how do you begin to understand like the creative fees, you can charge like, You're talking about people are way more in demand than others, like how does one, I don't know, there's like the fake it till you make it part. Like I can say I'm, I'm 20 grand a day and if they're willing to pay it, they're willing to pay it.
Setting Your Creative Fee
Like what are your thoughts around how to set your creative fee as based on skillset or based on the client or any of that stuff? So we're talking about creative fee as like a day, right? Yeah, I guess, uh, well, I mean, you tell me from how photographers should charge, but is there a creative fee separate from their day rate?
Yeah. How does that look? Yeah. I think a lot of photographers do it that way with, uh, here's my day rate plus a licensing fee. That's how a lot of commercial photographers operate. I'm a fan of rolling those numbers into one for a couple different reasons. So I'm a fan of having a one line item that says creative slash licensing fee, and that One number is going to encapsulate your fee for, for what you are.
Bringing to the project. So if it's a three day shoot with 20 images, that one fee is covering that. If it's a one day shoot with all content captured that that one number is covering that that creative slash licensing fee and I'm a fan of doing it that way is because that keeps your potentially per image fee higher.
Should they come back and want more images later that keeps your licensing fee higher if they want to come back and license the work after the current license expires or for, you know, expanded into a different type of use, et cetera. So let's just say. They're like, we want five final images. It's a three day shoot.
My rate's 20 grand. And then after that, they say, Oh, actually we want seven images instead of five. And you've put 20 grand as your line item. How do you figure out how to break out percentage more to charge them? Or how is that in your benefit there? In this case, you know, if they've come back and asked for more than I think it's already like the ball is in your court.
That's saying the client is saying, Hey, we've seen your numbers and we like them and we want more. So now we know you're going to charge us more. And they're basically just asking how much more I think that that's easy enough to figure out. Just, you know, what that I, Sorry, I didn't write down the numbers you said, but 20 grand divided by X number of images and then put that percentage on there.
If the licensing is the same, that's, that's, you know, probably what the client is expecting. And you can move forward with that. Right. So that's how you do that math. Essentially, it would be, that's what I'm asking is like trying to figure that out in my head. So it's, you do it on percentage basis. If you're clumping everything together, you know, a rate plus creative fee, and then you're looking at that from a deliverables perspective, then it's, if they ask for more deliverables or less, you're using a percentage of that total cost to come up with that rate or whatever.
Well, to be clear to a lot of people use day rate and creative fee as the same thing. Some people say 1, some people say the other. So I think it's good to be clear. It's like, I like to say it as a creative slash licensing fee. So basically, it's the money that you're making to show up and shoot the project and the money you're making to for the client to use the work that's all rolled into 1.
So, yeah, I think a percentage is generally the simplest way to do that as long as the licensing is the same and as long as the deliverables are the same. I mean, in this situation, if they just added two more images, sure, that can just go up by that percentage. I think that would be fair. But again, I think it's, you know, every project is different.
All the, the licensing is different. You know, are, are, are these two images that need to be shot and it's a completely different scene or two different scenes? Or are these just two additional images? You know, maybe there's a horizontal taken three steps to the left of the vertical that you took three steps to the right.
You know, those are, those are two very different things. Right. True. So it's, yeah, obviously not a black and white answer there, but I'm just trying to envision like a scenario for someone to be able to run through that in their head. Yeah, I think that the percentage is pretty good where that can backfire pretty quickly is when you say in this situation, again, I don't have numbers in front of me, but you know, 20 grand for five images and the client says, Oh, actually, we only want two images.
Yeah. Uh, how do you account for that? You know, you're not going to divide 20 by five and then multiply that by two. That's just not going to be probably worth your time to, to go do the project anymore. So I think that that's when it gets tricky and that's when like, you know, back can certainly back that percentage can certainly backfire in talking to a client.
So it's good to have those conversations of like, you know, the client knows, like, you know, you're going to have a, a certain horizontal level of how much money you're charging to show up and shoot the work. And then, you know, on top of that, and what's making your increase your fees is, is the quantity of work you're making and how they want to use how they intend to use it.
I mean, do you have any advice how to backstep out of that scenario for diving into that one? Because I'm sure that would, that would happen. It's just like, okay, well, you just say, hey, it's not worth it. You can't say it's not worth my time anymore. Or how would you even know? I think you give them a, you know, you give them a new estimate.
One advice too is never quote over the phone, which is something that we're doing here where we don't actually have numbers in front of us and actually seeing like what this, what the value is of this, like talking to hypotheticals. But, you know, in a conversation like this, I would, I would say to the client, like, absolutely, let me take a look at this and the creative needs and put together a new estimate based on those 2 final images.
If they are going from five images to two and they've already seen the 20, 000, I think it's good to assess with them to like what has changed, you know, they've already seen the 20, 000. Is it just budget that has changed and they want to spend less money. Can you make the client happy by giving them those five images, but doing it in a less expensive way somehow, you know, they're always going to love that.
Like, that's why, again, they come, they come to us for creative problem solving, so try to help them with that. And that will, that can keep your fee higher too. Hey, I, I don't just want you to get almost a third of what you asked for because you don't have the money for it. Let's help you get everything you need, but maybe for just a smaller production value.
But also, you know, put together that, that new estimate for that, the reason of like, you're going to show them exactly what these, the new image count is, what the new licensing is, if that changed, you know, if you go from 5 images to 2 images, I imagine that the, the time on set might change and I imagine that the locations might change or if it's still a photography, certainly the props and materials are changing.
So all those things will be reflected in the estimate as well and can help save money. And like I was mentioning before, you know, keep that, keep the image count up, but the bottom line lower, if it's just possible, like, you know, the client says, Oh, we just don't need these products for these other three products photographed anymore.
Then it's, yeah, well, cool. Let's still give you five images of the, of the two products that you do have. Yeah, that makes sense. Ultimately, yeah, keeping the energy high, keeping the excitement high to work with you. And I mean, that's the art of I guess negotiation and then just being and relationship really.
Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I've said this a bunch of this call, but like, you know, it's a service industry. And it, you know, they've come to us to provide the service that you are awesome at, which is making photographs and they can't do that. And that's why they've come to you. So it's, you know, putting together a responsible estimate based on exactly what they're asking for.
I think that clients are going to get upset if you try to upsell them. I think it's, it's not going to be fair also when you're, you know, every project is, is at least triple bid. They're always talking to someone else, another photographer somewhere. So if your estimate does not have the same deliverables.
Uh, for that the client has asked for that and other photographers putting together, it's just not going to make sense when they're when they're comparing the estimates to. And I think that's just going to upset a client. So, yeah, it was put together an estimate what they're asking for. If they're asking for something different, try to figure out why they're asking for that different thing is based on price is based on products available.
Is it based on their whatever needs? Those are figure that out to try to be a help. Yeah, that makes sense. When it comes to software, I mean, I love to just dive into that from a from a bidding perspective, or there's so many different types of ways people have gone about this. And I've asked so many different producers what they're using.
And there's all these different answers. And a lot of times people just have their own custom built spreadsheet. And when we work together, we use software called BlinkBid. And I do find it's a bit photo centric for any of those DPs listening, but it ultimately has been my favorite one so far when it comes to like, Baking in the it just a nice looking template it bakes in the contract in the bottom the way the the menu system works for building out all of your once you build out a line item, it exists in the library.
Software for Estimates
So, for example, I type in, you know, Komodo or Red Raptor, AKA, blah, blah, blah, you know, that's that's always there for me next time I go there and just one click. How do you like? Yeah, what software do you like to use? And why we love using BlingBit A wonderful machine. I think it's really, um, conducive to put together estimates in a good way.
This is displayed correctly to clients. It's quick. It's easy to use. It does the math for you. It's very easy to export in advance. invoice right from the software. It's very easy to transfer that project into production when it gets awarded. And then, you know, within the production tab and blink bit, it kind of acts as like you're, you know, you're running spreadsheet, like you're running just where you can, you know, you have all these linings that are already entered and then you can enter the expenses for them or receipts, et cetera, and then transfer that right to production, uh, or sorry, transfer that production rate to invoice and invoice the client, the final balance invoice.
It's very easy to use, and one of the good benefits of it too is that you can share the project with other folks as well. So if, you know, let's say you, Marshall, hire me to produce a shoot, I have the BlinkBid, uh, going, I can share that with you just so you can have a live view of everything that's being spent in real time.
Do you, if I'm sharing with somebody, do they have to be paying for it? Yeah, you have to have an, you have to have an account. Yeah. Cause I just worked with a coordinator and I guess, yeah, that was the scenario. But, uh, yeah, just to clarify, they also have to have it. That makes sense. Yeah. I guess one thing I would like to maybe say is that, uh, I think for you as an executive producer, that program is, probably very intuitive.
And while it is super intuitive, I still get when it comes to like balancing out the production and everything, it's still a producer mind. And so one thing I did on this recently last job is I hired a coordinator to help me kind of wrap things up. So I built the estimate in there, which felt very natural.
I put, you know, had the templated contract in the bottom, but then when it came to like doing managing all the receipts and checking all the Cross crossing the costs. I had someone else jump in there and do that. So that was kind of a good workflow. This this last one finally felt really fluid. Great. And you said they that production corner did that within blink bit as well.
Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's it's great. It's very helpful. I mean, I know that a lot of your projects to you're working as a not just Sound disparaging, but a, a rental house too, right? You have a lot of own gear that you're renting to production, sometimes a production that you're on as a DP or a cinematographer, and sometimes that you may not be, folks are just renting it from you.
So it's great that you are able to do some custom work within Blink bid and make those, those catalogs of items that you, that you own and, and what their, their daily rates are to rent those out. Mm hmm. I think the new feature I realized was studio inventory. You can tick that box and then it allows you to separate your like the rentals that I would rent from, uh, you know, I, for example, I rented a grip and lighting van on this last one, but then for the most part, all the, you know, the camera, the lensing, all the other bits and bobs were things that I owned, uh, and become profit, not an expense.
So that was always my confusion of like how to, yeah. Separate those 2 and I think I think I've just maybe iron it out because I'm still finally wrapping that job. So we'll find out at the end of this one. But I've been constantly trying to figure out that workflow for a long time. So, yeah, I think I think it might work this time.
Clients Who Set Their Own SOW
That's great. I'm glad to hear it. And, uh, I guess 1 of the random scenario that I'd love to bring up just it's very specific, but it might happen often to other people is. I think there's this maybe battle that goes on between big, bigger agencies and all that when it comes to the legal side of it, like, I often find people don't want to sign.
Not often, but sometimes not sign the contract that I make, and they're only willing to send their own SOP or SOW rather, sorry, and ask you to sign that. What, what would you do in that scenario? Or does that come up often? Yeah, it comes up often. I see that probably about. 25 percent of the time, you know, with the big clients, they're going to send their own scope of work that they want the, you know, production company or their photographer to sign.
And I think that's totally fine and normal as long as everything in there matches up with the estimate that you've provided to the client. A lot of times we see that the, these, you know, agreements that come through from the, from the agency or client are just boilerplate documents they send to any vendor.
And it's not necessarily photography or videography, uh, related, it's just how they treat every vendor. So sometimes there's a lot of things in there that, that aren't applicable, you know, like insurance, or one I saw the other day was rental cars over the weekend and how they wouldn't pay for rental cars over the weekend.
And it was, you know, that was a quick like, Hey, can we just strike this entire paragraph about rental cars over the weekend? Like, this is ridiculous. Like, if we're shooting over weekend, we need a rental car. Like, just, you know, but it was just basically for, like, you know, their, their contract employees, but sorry, when a tangent there, but rental cars, but you want to make sure that everything in that scope of work agreement lines up with what you've estimated for the project so that the.
Licensing is the same and the payment terms are the same. And those are the main two things that I always see are not of this, you know, 20 to 25 percent when the client signs their own S O sets their own S O W. It is always a work made for hire. And then the payment terms are never the same too. It's, you know, generally, like it's not an advanced payment and net 30 it's no advanced payment and net 60 or net 90.
Unfortunately, a lot of the times, I dunno if you've, you've seen this, is that those, you know, client agreements come very close to the shoot of negotiating went through this. Yeah, those exact scenario. Just did, yeah. Where it's like we've been work, you know, estimating this project and having creative calls for the last 30 days.
Yeah, why haven't you sent this for us to review before now, you know, now that we need this, we need to sign now and we need money by our bank account now, because we need to kick off production tomorrow, but I think that's just the, that's just the norm. It's so few and far between that when a, a agency, so w is perfect and aligned with the estimate.
I always write back that person right away and thank them so much and commend them on actually doing it. You know, changing their, their agreements from their boilerplate language to reflect, you know, this specific project. It's always great to see. Okay. So for example, though, I guess in my scenario, then I would question, let's just say you have things baked in on, I don't know, weather days, uh, in your contract about how you would have to charge more because of them, or I'm just trying to think of like some, some uses things like if they don't have that in their SOW and they're not willing to sign yours.
Then how do you negotiate that, that part? Yeah, I think all that, all that stuff just needs to be brought to their attention. You know, Hey, all this, these cancellations, these weather delays, these, my estimate said net 30. You now say net 90, you know, I can't get paid net 90. You know, all those things just need to be brought up and hopefully they will be able to adjust it.
Right. So you're just then pushing for them to adjust it. And like you said, it's always in this silly little timeframe of like, Hey, we're shooting in 48 hours or something like that. Yeah. Because you have to, I mean, they're sending that scope of work because there's, you know, whatever client you're talking to at this agency or brand, like they always have at least 10 people above them.
Right. And they're, you know, pulling this like vendor agreement off the, off the, their server. And they're sending it to you for signature. Tell them like, Hey, this doesn't cover cancellations and weather delays and all these things that are on my estimate that you approved either in, you know, email and wanting to move forward with this or with signature, like all these things need to be need to be reconciled.
Yeah, I can hear it in so many other filmers, photographers, all this is like, you know, the pressure of the shoot is on their shoulders. You're shooting a few days and like all this stuff just gets super overwhelming last minute. And, um. Yeah. I think maybe I guess my solution I found is just having someone else in your camp like yourself or, you know, even it's just a production coordinator or producer or whatever that might be to do is be negotiating those moments where the pressure is on.
Yeah, and it's, you know, in any business, any job there's, you know, you want to have. People with their individual hats on that are handling certain roles, right? And so when you can afford that in a production, like, yes, that, that producer is going to be handling all these agency, uh, conversations, handling the billing, handling the payment so that you can just focus on the creative.
Learning More About Wonderful Machine
Yeah. And as we begin to wrap things up here, is there anything that you'd like to share, I guess, with, you know, people who are going through all of this and advice? Yeah, absolutely. I would love to talk more about Wonderful Machine as a whole and my role, Wonderful Machine said. Folks that might not be familiar, the wonderful Sheen has been around for over 16 years now and exists as a, I think I mentioned this earlier, you know, to be a help to every working photographer with hopefully every facet of their career.
So I'm in the production department where, you know, I work with photographers and clients and agencies and brands on. Estimates and putting together, uh, you know, productions for, for clients and then putting together estimates, um, and reviewing estimates for photographers or just consulting questions of what appropriate fees are, should be, or how to handle tricky negotiations, et cetera.
And then we have a whole marketing and branding department too, that works on with photographers on marketing plans and, and who the clients are that they should reach out to and how to reach out to them, building email campaigns, uh, logo design website. Templates, et cetera. And then we have a whole membership aspect of one Mach Wonderful Machine.
Two, which is what most folks are familiar with, which is if you go to one from machine, you'll see about 600 photographers and videographers listed there. And those are public facing photographers who pay us monthly to be listed, and they're all listed by specialty and location. And clients can go to one of the machine and search by those specialties and locations for those, you know, photographers in those areas.
And a lot of those, when that happens, we don't take commission. A lot of times we don't even know about the projects, you know, it'll be a client or reach out directly to the photographer and we don't know about it unless the photographer tells us, et cetera. So, yeah, absolutely. Any. Questions on, on production or putting together estimates would love to be a help and easy to reach at production at wonderful machine dot com.
Yeah, and will that go straight to you or is there multiple people that work in that department or yeah, we have 4 people in the production department and we all view that, uh, that email address that production at wonderful machine email address. So, you know, depending on our capacity, or if we're on a shooter, what's going on 1 of us, or all of us will go back to you.
Awesome. Well, Brian, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I think there's a definitely some valuable tips and yeah, just like understanding that whole pricing negotiation thing. I feel like it's just this, uh, this big unknown thing often, uh, when I speak to other creatives. So I'm really glad we got to have this conversation today.
Me too. Thanks so much for inviting me on Marshall. It, it, you're absolutely right. It certainly is a mystery. And like we talked about in the beginning, that's the number one thing, uh, folks reach out, reach out to us about is, is, you know, what those appropriate fees could be or should be awesome. Well, thank you.
Thanks so much, Marshall. Great to speak with you. Okay. That was Brian Sheffield. Brian has such a wealth of knowledge when it comes to pricing and negotiation. And I wish I had found this offering sooner on my freelance journey. If you feel like you could use some help in negotiating your next bid and dialing in your next contract, I encourage you to check out WonderfulMachine.
com. And under the consulting tab in the toolbar, click on pricing and negotiation to see the variety of options they have to help you with your next bid, or directly email production at wonderful machine. com and effort to continually grow this podcast and help you make a living doing what you love. I have a request.
I want you to DM me on Instagram at Marshall Chupa and let me know what is the one thing you are struggling with the most. And why is it so painful? Learning what my audience is struggling with most will help me dig deeper in future episodes with guests and ultimately help us grow as a community. In future episodes, I will be speaking with photographers, cinematographers, directors, producers, reps, and anyone who has decided to take this ambitious leap of faith and making a life and a living behind the lens.
Stay tuned and subscribe to the channel on your favorite podcast app. And if you're open to it, Take 30 seconds to leave me a star rating or review. If you heard something of value, I encourage you to share this episode with a friend and help them along their creative journey. Thanks for listening, and I'll catch you next time on Shot List.
