30. Heather Mosher | Documentary Filmmaker

In this episode, Marshal sits down with Heather Mosher, a seasoned documentary filmmaker who has produced and sold films internationally to major companies like the CBC, Red Bull TV, and Air Canada. Heather delves into her unique experiences, including filming Olympic rock climbers, offering listeners an exclusive peek into her creative process. They explore the critical role of a compelling logline in securing funding and discuss why prioritizing mental health is crucial for filmmakers—so much so that Heather even suggests budgeting for a therapist. With heartfelt vulnerability and a deep passion for her craft, Heather provides invaluable insights on sustaining a long-term career in the industry.

Episode Highlights

2:21 Meet Heather

12:39 Behind the Scenes of an Olympic Shoot

20:20 Heather’s Filmmaking Journey

30:30 How She Comes Up with Ideas

38:02 Securing Funding

42:26 Pre-Production Process

47:29 Production Process

53:17 Handling Burnout

1:04:23 Post-Production Process

1:08:27 Final Creative Process

1:12:44 Distribution Process

1:19:56 Advice for Women in Filmmaking

🔗 CONNECT WITH Heather Mosher

📸 Instagram | www.instagram.com/heathermoshermedia 💻 Website | www.heathermosher.ca

🔗 CONNECT WITH MARSHAL

📸 Instagram | www.instagram.com/marshalchupa 💻 Website | www.marshalchupa.com 👥 Linkedin | www.linkedin.com/in/marshal-chupa-99a7921a8

📄 SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT

Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - www.shotlistpodcast.com

🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST

This podcast is all about helping emerging cinematographers, photographers, and directors navigate the challenges of making a life and a living behind the lens. From workflow to personal growth, creative vision to marketing, finances to production—every episode is packed with a wide range of topics to support visual storytellers in their pursuit of building a business and growing a career they are proud of.

🎧 LISTEN FOR FREE Apple Podcasts | https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/shotlist/id1645435800 Spotify | https://open.spotify.com/show/3m5203Y5yQ7wNXQhZBOmNV?si=f46bc0e937bf40c1 RSS | https://anchor.fm/s/5cb2e948/podcast/rss

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📱 GET IN TOUCH

You can also drop me a DM instagram @marshalchupa or email marshal@marshalchupa.com

Transcript

Introduction and Welcome

At the end of the day, this is just a job. And if you burn yourself out, you're doing everybody a disservice, both yourself and, like, the industry, because so many people push themselves so hard that they can't do the job anymore. And I don't think if you look at it from a career perspective, I don't think there's really any point in, like, going so hard for a few years that you then stop telling stories.

Hello, and welcome to to another episode of the shot list podcast, where we talk about how to make a life and a living behind the lens. I'm cinematographer Marshall Chupa, and today I'm speaking with documentary filmmaker Heather Mosher. In this episode, Heather and I dive into her recent experience filming the Olympics and how she was able to create a genuine connection with the athletes in a constantly changing environment, how the Banff Mountain Film Festival was the hook that pulled her into the past decade of making films full time for a living. How important your logline is when it comes to finding funding and the avenues to go about searching for money, and why looking after your own mental health is so important as a documentary filmmaker and adding in a therapist as a line item in the budget. Not only is Heather such a passionate filmmaker as you'll hear in her voice throughout this episode, but she was willing to get vulnerable with her story and journey, sharing less of the obvious things we all need to consider when it comes to longevity and sustainability in this ambitious career path we have all chosen. Quick disclaimer before jumping into this episode, the input to my microphone, for whatever reason, did not connect to the computer, and therefore my screen from the computer was recording the audio. This resulted in some pretty poor quality, and I actually debated not releasing this episode, which I was very sad to let Heather know. But my friend Thierry told me about this AI tool, Adobe. So I would highly recommend, if you ever have any audio issues, jump over to podcast dot adobe.com. i ran it through their enhanced speech tool, and I would say I got 80% better. I can't say it's all the way, it's a little bit funky, but I think ultimately you're still going to be able to understand what I'm saying. And Heather is crispy clean. So without further ado, let's jump in.

Heather Moser, thanks for so much for coming on the podcast today. Excited to have you here.

Thanks for having me.

I've been trying to track you down for the last little while.

Fair.

Meet Heather

I'm curious, where have you been in the world? Because I know as a documentary filmmaker, life gets a bit crazy.

A little bit crazy. Yeah. It's been interesting because the first question a lot of people ask me when I'm traveling is, is it for work? And at first, it wasn't. It was just I had the chance to get a visa for France. I was about to age out of it. I had to go before my birthday in February, so I got a visa for France. And I was like, you know what? I just need to be out of town for the winter. Go get some inspiration, meet some people, do a little bit of a film festival tour. I left Squamish last October. I went to Banff for the film festival, which is one of my favorite places. And then from there, I went to New York. I went to, like, a film festival there. I presented some. Oh, where did I even go? I bumped around a fair bit. Ended up in France eventually, and then I was based in Chamonix for the winter, which is just a bit of a dream. Um, and because I was based in Europe, I got this job working for a documentary series on the Olympics. So I was kind of away for fun. Work is quieter in the winter. Anyways, I just wanted to change a scene. And then because I was over there, I ended up traveling a whole lot more. So I've been. Yeah, I've been. I've been all around in the last couple months. So the last two months was for work, but before that, it was just, um. Yeah, personal reasons.

Okay, so you've been bouncing around. Um, I was just digging through your profile this morning, and I did this, uh, on a new bio. It says, rock, uh, climber, back country skier, Mountain runner, who has produced and sold independent films internationally for broadcast and distribution for companies like CDC, Red and Bull TV and Air, uh, Canada. Basically, when I read that, I read, basically, I'm gonna be talking to a borderline badass. That's not what I read.

Thank you.

But the other thing that was at the bottom of your bio, it said, even though this might sound intense, you know, rest assured that you are mostly motivated by snacks. So I'm curious that probably that's the question. To start this interview is just like, what kind of snacks are motivating you to do the level of physical feats that I see you?

I'm so glad that that's what you latched on to. It's something that I've put into profiles for a while as a joke, because, like, I hate when it all sounds very serious, but truly, if somebody pulls out, like, a tray of snacks, or if I'm, like, bonking a little bit or it's a long day and somebody can feed me, I perk up immediately. It depends what I'm doing. I mean, if you're doing a long mountain day, like some dried sausage, some chunks of cheese, some, like, dried mango or dried fruits is amazing. I went through a peanut m and m phase when I was in Chamonix, and it turns out when you live alone and you just get the jumbo bags of peanut m and Ms, I think it might be out of that phase for a little bit, but really anything that keeps the energy up when I'm running, it's a lot of dates, which is nice, and gels and bars and things like that, but I'll eat anything. And I really like food. So on a long shoot day, as long as I have a nice. It doesn't even have to be a nice lunch. I don't know. Yeah, I'm really not picky, but I do enjoy. I enjoy just having a snack on the side of the trail. Or like, you have a long, hard day and somebody brings you a tray of cookies and you're like, oh, yeah, this is what I needed right now.

So Heather's love language is food is one of her stacks.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've learned this hard way. It took a long time to figure this out. Yeah.

I feel like it was highly under thought about by producers on how much food affects, you know, the outcome of the shoot, so.

Totally.

So the producers out there, those little stacks, are going to get you more mileage.

Absolutely. I've been on so many jobs where people kind of forget to eat because you get really wrapped up in the creative process. And I think, like, it doesn't have to be big or fancy, but just, like, getting some nice sandwiches and, like, sitting down and taking a break. And that's one of the things. Like, I've done a lot of jobs where I'm wearing a lot of hats, and I'm learning more and more that I really appreciate those times where you get to sit down, and I have a lot of small crew productions. You get to sit down, you get to just relax, down, regulate, and think about the creative, or think about the project and chat with people. And it's also, honestly, snack breaks and food breaks are such a great time to connect with your team as well. So it's not just that I do really like snacks, but it's also we have to feed our bodies, and that helps us think more clearly. And it's also a time to sit down and connect with people. This creative process is so inherently collaborative, and food brings people together. So, yeah, I do think it is legitimately a very important part of the process.

Yes. I mean, speaking to that. Okay, so if you're to sign out to be a documentary filmmaker, like, what kind of lifestyle are you looking at?

What a great question. I think it's a lifestyle that's, like, it comes with so much freedom, and in a way, it really suits me, because I like. I like all the phases of it. I like digging into a big project, and I like it when it's hard. And I like traveling, and I like this opportunity right now since I just finished a block of work. Now I get a chance to connect with people and look for new projects and watch films and get creative and get inspired, and I love that, too. I think it's kind of whatever you want it to be. And over the years, I've seen a lot of people who really want to make documentaries. And the one thing that this career seems to have in common across the board is that it is very, very hard, and you have to be very self motivated. And I had somebody tell me really early in my career that you have to be an interesting person to do this kind of work. So that's something that I've tried to keep in mind as well, is you have to be out in the world looking for stories, connecting with people, and just being really curious, and then somehow that always parlays back into work, projects, connections. But it's very much a lifestyle, and it's very all encompassing, and it is really not. It's not easy, but it's also so rewarding when you do it. You get it. You know, it's just. You just got to start. For a lot of people, you just got to start. You got to make something.

Yeah. Where does that self motivation come from? Because ultimately, from what I can see, you're the one from taking it from. I have an idea in my head to like, okay, this is now running at a film festival. Where does the self motivation come from? You know, it's not easy to get out of bed in the morning and just have all this motivation. Like, what is pulling you? Is it, like, you're just so excited about storytelling, you're so driven to be in collaboration with other people. You're so excited to see your film on a screen accessible. What is the piece for you?

Oh, that's such a good question. You have really good questions. Marshall. This is, um. I wish I could tell you, because it kind of comes and goes. And I think it's like, I thought a lot in the last couple of years about wanting to enjoy the process more. I mean, there's no part of this that I do just to see a film on, um, the screen, although that's a really cool part of the. That is a really cool, like, outcome once you finish making something. But that feels so far away when you're in the process of actually making a film, it's sometimes to say, like, I don't think I chose this career. I think it chose me. I found filmmaking, and then I found it's always been documentary, whether that was film or photography. Like, this is the thing that gets me fired up. And I think when you find that spark, like, whatever it is that lights you up, and it might be documentary filmmaking, or it might be flower arranging or making donuts or whatever it is, I don't really have a why so much, other than maybe it's just connecting with people. Like, documenting things, bearing witness to people's stories, and just connecting with other people, I find just so powerful and so inspiring. So then getting to, like, connect with people and capture their stories and share it is something that I find really deep meaning and purpose in.

Yeah, and I think as a documented filmmaker, you're also wearing a ton of paths. And so that's something I'm curious about, is I shied away from this path for the reason that I love staying in my lane when it comes to the camera work, being a cinematographer. But I know as a documentary filmmaker, you're, like, everything from concept idea to, like, pretty mind your director hot to being the producer to holding a camera and then jumping into the edit. And you like all that stuff.

I think I do, honestly. And it's funny hearing you say that, because I think if I had to stay in my lane, I don't know that it would suit me that well. Like, everybody has different skill sets, and they're all important. And I think there's something about, like, being able to learn all these different skill sets that it takes to make a documentary film. I'm starting to question how many different things I can do at the same time. Like, my last film, I finished in 2021, and I was the director and the producer. I also filmed most of it, and I hired an editor, which was a, um, really great choice. But in retrospect, being able to direct and produce, they're great skill sets to have, but they're also directly in conflict with each other, because as the director, you have to have all these, like, big ideas. And wouldn't it be cool if we filmed this like this? And then as the producer, you have to be like, well, we've got a schedule, we've got a budget, and, like, we can do that, but we can't do that. Or, like, yes, I'll make that happen. Let's figure out the permits and the insurance. I was always just getting pulled in opposite directions until I couldn't really make decisions very well anymore. But then I go on shoots, like this project I just did for the Olympics, and I'm wearing a couple different hats. And it's great because you can kind of send me out into the field, and I'm following these Olympic rock climbers, and I have the skillset to be able to direct and be able to produce and be able to film, but then there's also a producer who's producing the whole show, and then there's somebody who's in charge of the permitting and the locations. And so starting to hand off the bigger responsibilities, but be able to wear multiple hats at the same time means that I can just go out in a super tiny crew, and, like, there's a lot of problem solving, like, what needs to get done? Let's figure it out. And I find that that's something that, like, bigger, more organized shoots don't have that flexibility to pivot as quickly. So the smaller your team is and the smaller your kit is, honestly, the more you can, like, embed in places and not be intrusive. And I think that's a really cool, sweet spot of documentary filmmaking is. Like, what kind of access can I get? And how close to this story can I get? And you sacrifice a little bit on the quality, but then you can just get some. It just. It's so real, you know? Like, you really get to connect with people.

Behind the Scenes of an Olympic Shoot

Yeah. So, I mean, come in a day in the life of Heather on this Olympic shoot. Like, what did you look like? What time are you getting up? What equipment did you have in your hands? What were you responsible for capturing during the day? Like, lead me through that.

Yeah, this was a super cool job. I just bought a Sony FX six. I decided that I wanted to be more of a camera, um, operator this year and spend more time out in the field. So I basically embedded with four climbers who are pursuing the Olympic dream. And we get a schedule in the evening, and in the morning, sometimes we'd, like, ride the shuttle into the event venue with the climbers or just meet them when the event was starting. And then my style tends to be very fly on the wall. Like, I really. I've thought about this a lot of. There's such a range of ways that you can produce a story, and I love spending time with people and getting to just follow them in a day in their life, and then you start to gain trust, and then you can ask them some questions and then, like, kind of follow their story that way. So, I mean, each of those events, there's one in Shanghai and one in Budapest, and each of those was six days. So we had two days before the event started to, like, film with the climbers, do some interviews, do some of the setup, and then I was just there for four days of Olympics qualifications for all the highs and the lows.

So gaining people's trust, that's, like, a big part of it, because ultimately, when you're meeting someone the first time, sticking a camera on their face, that's not. Yeah, uh, that's a bit of an intrusive experience. And so, like, when you meet someone for the first time, what are maybe some of your techniques that you use to get comfortable with them? Like, are you holding off on starting to film, or you're just getting to know them right away? Are you letting them just play out what they do? Yeah. How do you approach that connection?

Yeah, it varies with the job, and it varies with the person. So some people are a bit more camera shy, and some people who have been interviewed a lot or are, you know, professional athletes, they're really used to it, and they know that this is part of the job I like, if I can, to set people up in advance a little bit more and just say, like, this is how this is going to work. This is what we're trying to do, get people on board. And then, I mean, we had these two different shoots for the Olympics, and in the first one, it was much more observational, and then the second one, it was a different style. And we'd show up to film, uh, the climbers, and I'd be like, hey, pretend I'm not here. We got the sound guy. Can you put a mic on you? And then, like, when I come in, you're gonna start talking to me as soon as I show up, but you're just talking to me. Like, pretend the camera's not here. I know it's right between us and it's quite large, but pretend the camera is not there. And, you know, we're just having a chat, and I ask you to show me something like, yeah, let's just, like, have a conversation. But it really. Yeah, really depends on who you are and what you're trying to get. I've been in situations where it's very worth, like, going in and having a conversation and getting to know people first and then getting out the camera once you've got them, um, on board. I think the key piece is making sure that people understand what the process is and that they're comfortable with it. Some people are happy right away. They don't care. You can film anything, like, anything at all. And some people are, you know, have walls up or boundaries, and they're uncomfortable, and you can tell. And those are the situations where I like to just put the camera down and be like, hey, what's. Yeah, what's going on? What does work for you? We can come back. Do you want to just, like, go have a coffee? Tell me what's going on? You know, like, I try to be a human first, and I think that's always really important. And I try to set people up also say, like, we can stop at any time. Like, if we're filming this and you don't want to film it anymore, you just tell me, put the camera down. Like, that's. That's really important. And with the athletes, one of the priorities is also just to stay out of the way.

Yeah. So it's not like, I think that's part of document filming that maybe doesn't exist in the other parts that I'm, um, you know, let's say commercial filmmaking, like, not necessarily getting comfortable or building this, like, intertwined relationship with the talent and diving into their life stories or their inner workings of their emotions, all that sort of stuff. So, I mean, that's a huge other skill that you got to deal with.

Yeah, totally. And I think it's really interesting because I also am aware that I'm not a large person and I'm a woman, and so to get into some of these situations, I can just relate to people differently than a large, tall man with the camera might. I try to have a real. And I try to play on that a little bit and just be super nice and not imposing and. And get people comfortable with me personally. Yeah. And I just enjoy when you can get through to people that way. It's nice because if somebody feels like they connect with you and they trust you, even if they know it doesn't really matter, the footage is going off to post production, maybe I don't know what's gonna happen with it after that, but if somebody's comfortable sharing what they're sharing with you as a person, and then they let go of whatever it is that they're giving you, then I know it can be a really cool process, especially when people are dealing with anything difficult. I think it can also be, like, quite healing to share things and let go of it in that moment. And I just try to be a space where people have permission to open up in that way.

Yeah, I mean, that's art. That's the art right there of documentary filmmaking. Yeah, I think that's so brilliant that, ah, you. I mean, holding a camera and doing that is extra hard because there's this black box which is intimidating, and they have the ceiling of all. I'm being quartered. And then how do you get them to invade, you know, a motion that has depths and because that's obviously what our, the audience is connecting to. So I'm curious. Okay, you're standing there, you got a camera in your hand. It's like six, so it's smaller. How are you? I'm just trying to envision, like, shoulder mounting this and then talking beside it so you have eyeline, like, how does that experience go that you can actually have that connection?

Yeah, I mean, this is the first time that I've shot with the FX six. I've done a lot of work just with the, uh, like the Panasonic series, like, uh, mirrorless cameras, which are a lot easier to carry wherever you need to go. So when you're going into the mountains or it's just. Yeah, I've just shot on mirrorless for a long time. So the FX six was a new experience this year, and I love that camera. I'm having a great time with it. But I did notice that if I'm just holding, I often have it handheld, so it's just up on my right. And then the most natural way to frame is the person is looking sort of left across frame so that they're looking at me. And that's just kind of how every frame ends up being. So I tried to experiment, especially when it's just me and I can't haul a tripod around all the time. So I tried to experiment with occasionally, like, balancing it on my opposite knee, embedding the screen so I could see it, or like balancing it on a table or a desk or something, or, like, just different ways to get a different frame. But, yeah, if it's just me, and in this case, it was a sound person and I'm the camera operator, you do sacrifice a little bit of the, like, the quality of your frame just for having the small you know, the super small, nimble team. But, yeah, I'd be, like, handheld shoulder height. If somebody was taller than me, I'd try to lift it up a little higher, but I can only go so high.

Yeah, well, we have the opposite problem. I actually can't shoulder it because I'm, um, from six'five, so anytime I put on my shoulder, you're looking at someone's net. So we humphrey hop is a problem.

That sounds nice that you could shoot sort of at chest level a little bit more.

Yeah, that's my trick. I have to use, like, a ready rig and then, like, pull it down to my chest level, essentially, which is everyone else's eye lines.

If I held it at chest level, I'm looking at people's noses. Yeah, it's not a great angle.

Right. Well, if we both shot together, we would have the opposing angles covered, so that's good to know.

Yeah, exactly. Some people do two cameras with, like, a left side and a right side, and we just go, like, top down and bottom up.

Heather’s Filmmaking Journey

That's right. Yeah. So we kind of skipped ahead of. I would love to actually go. Okay, so I'd love to know a little bit more about Heather. Like, how did you even begin to jump into this or dive into this career path? Because this is never an obvious one to people, especially when specializing in the mountain outdoor documentary space. So how did you end up here?

Oh, I mean, it's such a winding road. And when I look back, and I think this is true for a lot of people, when I look back and it's like, it seems more obvious than it ever was at the time, I always knew that I wanted to be behind a camera. And I tried a couple other things that I thought were. And this is air quotes, real jobs. Like, I have a biology degree, and then I worked in the camera store, and then I got a teaching degree, and then I was like, I, uh, still want to be behind a camera. So when I moved to Vancouver, I worked in the photography industry for a little bit, and from that, found my way into filmmaking almost by accident. But the biggest thing for me, I had finished the teaching degree, and I knew that that wasn't the right fit for me. Like, it just didn't light me up the way that I hoped that it would. And I was applying for teaching jobs very half heartedly, and I applied to volunteer at the Banff Mountain film Festival, just, uh, as a volunteer. And it was the first time that I filled out an application form for something that, like, checked all the boxes for me. I was so fired up. The film festival's in October and I applied to volunteer in April and they didn't have the volunteer applications, like, open yet. And I was just so excited about it. But I started going to Banff in 2012, and then that kind of paralleled my, like, I came back to Canada. I, uh, was working in Vancouver and I was just trying to figure out how to make a living, honestly. But I was going to Banff every fall, and at the same time, I started learning how to edit video. And then I'd meet somebody at Banff and then I'd get a job editing films. And it just kind of, you know, year on year. And this has been since I haven't had a full time job since 2014. So year on year, I would build my skillset and then I go and get inspired and then I find some work and then I would, you know, those two things really played into each other, like, both working and then going to Banff every fall.

So that's kind of how you ended up in the mountain and sports world because of the band festival, do you think?

Honestly? Yeah. And I grew up in Calgary, so it was near to me. And it was just one of those things that was on my list of like 100 things I want to do before I die. I love lists. I was like a teenager, like late teens, and I made this list of things and that was just on the list. I was like, oh, it'd be cool to go to Banff for the Banff film Festival. And then when I did it, it's just the thing that, like, it hooked me and that. Yeah, that's probably why I have just ended up in this world.

What do you think it is that hooked you there? Was it like watching the films, of experiencing the emotions that came from that? Was it meeting people? Was it like the, uh, idea of doing it yourself? Like, what was the.

I think I just always really loved being outside and mountains and adventures. Like, there's a part of that that just absolutely lights me up. One of the things this past winter that was a big question for me was like, how much are mountain sports a part of my life? And it turns out it's a pretty big part. So I also, like, I've been a climber since university, so I started going to the film festival when I was learning to climb and just seeing people going outside, I think it's like the exploration, the way people can connect with each other, go to beautiful places, spend a lot of time outside. There's a physical challenge aspect. I don't know. It's what I love to do personally, and that it makes sense now that I look back on it, that that's what I've ended up capturing and the kinds of stories that I'm drawn to telling, but I wasn't really intentional about it. I've done a bunch of other things to make money along the way that were often, like, the cool doc jobs, but then also just work that paid the bills. But then, as I've built that, uh, up, I mean, it's pretty much all cool doc jobs right now. And it's not to say I'm not opposed to doing work that pays the bills. Like, that's also super important. I've just had the privilege of being able to, like, pursue the kinds of work that I really want to do. And then the more that I prioritize that, the more that that kind of work comes my way.

And if we go back to, like, the bridging, like, app wallet, what helped you full time? Like, what was, like, the first job as an editing job that got you be able to step into this?

Yeah, it was all editing. So when I, that first summer, I mean, it's not like I had a great, well paying, full time job that I had to leave. Like, I was pretty dissatisfied with work at the time. So when I left, I was really scraping by. I was just kind of doing what I felt I needed to do. I think a lot of people, if you have, like, a really good, cushy, full time job that you don't mind, it would make a lot of sense to save up some money before you take the leap to freelance. But for me, I was young enough and I was scrappy enough, and I can live very little money, so I was able to just, I had this connection with these guys who were super, super nice, and they did a lot of wedding videos at the time and, like, commercial videos, and they had a couple young people who, they were teaching how to edit videos. Like, I'd never touched video software in my life, and they hired me to edit wedding videos that summer for $12 an hour.

Wow.

And I had, right, but I had a knack for it, and I was like, at the time, I was, like, working at a climbing gym. And honestly, like, my standards for what I got paid were so low. I just wanted to do things that I found were interesting and just sort of more or less make enough money to live, which was very difficult. Uh, yeah, that part was hard. But then I was editing wedding videos and shooting weddings, and I enjoyed all of that. And because I was editing, like, probably 30 hours a week all summer that year, I put a big effort in to connect with people in the industry whose work I liked. And then there's a photographer, Hubert Kang, who I finally met up with him, and he was like, we really connected. We talked about, he loves running. And then he said, oh, you're an editor. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I wouldn't go that far. And he's like, well, you've been editing 30 hours a week. You clearly know how to edit video. Now. I have a hard drive of footage from this project I shot in Uganda with, like, this little League team, and I don't know what to do with it. Do you want to take a look? Like, give me a quote, give me a budget? Tell me what it would take to make a short film out of this. So that was the first thing that I sort of branched out into. And then, yeah, we made, like, an, I think it was, like, eight minute short film and sent it to some film festivals, and that was really where it all started. Yeah, Hubert, like, gave me a chance. I charged him. I don't think I charged him very much money. I didn't know how.

Yeah, of course, in the beginning, we don't know. Cool to see your progression into the path of director, because I think a lot of good directors that I also know came from editing, because, uh, I think there's something that lends to understanding the puzzle pieces you need for post. But now be on the flip side, knowing that you need to capture them. How much did, like, starting as an editor help you become a good director or a documentary filmmaker?

I actually really appreciate that reflection. I hadn't. I don't think I pieced that together. I mean, being an editor with a lot of the jobs that I was doing early on, like, I didn't know what it was like to work with a team. And that's something that I'm still. That's something this year in particular, I'm really trying to focus on is, like, what does it look like to interface with a whole team of people who have distinct roles? Because when I started out editing, I'd often, I wouldn't necessarily get that much direction. Like, so much documentary filmmaking is really scrappy, and I'd get a hard drive of footage, and somebody would say, okay, I need a two minute video out of this. You know, so I've heard people say that when you're making a documentary, you tell the story three times, so you plan it and you figure out what you think the story is going to be, you go into the field, you film it. You're pretty much, you're not starting from scratch because you have some ideas, but everything can change. So you're telling the whole story again, but then depending on what you bring into the edit, whatever footage you have, you almost have to start again. Okay, what did we actually capture? How can we put this together to tell a story? You're telling the story again. So when you're the editor, if you don't have somebody sitting down giving you extensive transcripts and time codes, if you're organizing everything yourself and watching the footage and figuring out how to put the story together, I mean, it is, in a way, that is quite a directorial role. Like, somebody else is responsible for it, but you have to figure out how to introduce your characters and what the story arc is going to be and where the emotion lands. And you're doing that all based on what's actually in front of you. So I think it. Yeah, it totally makes sense that, uh, learning how to edit, I think it's a great way into the industry. It's an incredible skill set to have. I'm really glad I don't need to edit that much anymore. It's a very difficult process. It's very time consuming. But it's such an incredible way to, like, just get your, you get into the meat of the story and you get to see it through from. If you. Yeah, if you're editing a doc film, you get to see the whole thing through from, you know, this is just a hard drive and an idea to, like, oh, we're like, watching this on the big screen with an audience. So it's just. Yeah, it's a really cool process.

Yeah, I mean, I see a few times I've met up with you way back in the day. Like, I remember stepping in and they're just like, sticking notes over the wall. Just like, you could tell you've been, like, logging way too many computer hours and your eyes are fresh out. So, you know, I think that's the dark side of being an editor, uh, as well.

Yeah, it is a hard job and you're in a dark room. I decided a couple years ago that it's just too much sitting for me. And I really enjoy, I think I'd enjoy it more if I, if I was doing it as, like, just more sustainably. I think when I was editing my own stuff for a couple years, there I was. Yeah, those were the moments that you remembering when there's just sticky notes everywhere, and you're. You're just mired in it. I did a couple projects that were. The scope was too big for where I was at at the time, but I learned so much. So, yeah, it's definitely a process.

Yeah. So something I love to dive into you with, Heather, is walking through, like, the documentary filmmaking process, because I feel like a lot of people have no idea. They see these things. They have to go to that, um, film festival. They are super inspired, but they're, like, completely oblivious to the actual process of having that and then getting it, to be able to sit down and watch it in a theater with an audience.

How She Comes Up with Ideas

So I'd love to start out piece by piece and start with, like, the idea of, how do you begin to find a story that you're intrigued about or come up with an idea? Where does that begin for you?

I used to have this. I mean, it changes year on year. I used to have a document where I would put down any ideas I came across, and it could be like, I read an article that I thought was really cool, or I met somebody who was really interesting, and it was mostly just, like, anything that grabbed me. This is something that I want to know more about. And then the hard part is finding funding. That's one of the biggest roles that you have to do as a producer. I mean, right now, I think it's really difficult. It sounds like the industry is really in a spot where there's less funding than there used to be. There's less money, there's less films getting produced. So it's easy, I think, for people to feel discouraged. But for a while there, it felt like there was a lot of stock film getting funded. For a couple of years, people would somehow. Oh, man. Come to me being like, do you have any ideas? Do you want to make something? And that's how a couple different projects happened. I would pull from that document and have a list of ideas, and a lot of funders have requirements. Like, it needs to be this type of story, or it needs to be this duration or needs to be in this region, and then you find something that you have that is appropriate and I. And pitch it, and I don't know. Honestly, it still feels like a bit of a mystery, like a bit of a black box. I can't believe I've made films and, like, people gave me money for it because every situation was so unique.

Let's. Let's unpack that black box a little bit, because I think people are really curious about this part. It's like, okay, well, you have a handful of ideas, it sounds like you're getting lucky and that people are coming to you. Have, I guess, the other way around. Have you pursued funding for an idea before? And if so, like what avenues or whatever I black box reopening to try to find it.

I mean, I'm also looking back on this, and I'm not giving myself a lot of credit. There was at least one winter where I think there was like a pivotal time, probably like late 2017, early 2018, where I'd been editing for a while and I was starting to work on like, cooler projects and bigger jobs, and I really enjoyed it, but I was at a point where I wanted to be in charge. Like, I wanted to tell stories in a way, in my way. And I spent a winter just writing grants and pitches, and there's. What resources would you look at? One of the ones in western Canada is just the telus funding, and that's developed a lot over the years, but they specifically fund, like, small scale production in western Canada. So they have a lot of regionally based funding available, and they're amazing. If you get any sort of broadcaster funding, you can also tie it to tax credits. So that's a huge process. There's a, uh, federal and a provincial tax credit for film, and if you're making docs, I mean, there's a whole bunch of rules that go into it. But I figured out a little bit about the tax credit process, which makes a huge difference for the funding, brand funding. If you're making films about athletes and outdoor adventure, there's always brands making content like Arc'teryx or the North Face, you know, who produce a lot of, like, really good, high quality documentary film, if that's the direction you want to go. And then there's always, like, film festivals will have grants or pitches. I know I've had some friends pitching some stuff to National Geographic recently. It's just the deeper you get into it, the more you find. And my philosophy for a while was to really embrace rejection. So if you have an idea or you find a grant, like, I gave myself the time, and if I found a grant, I would make an idea for it. Like, I would find something that fit and I would apply, and I have no idea how many things I've gotten rejected from. I just know that when I do get the money, you go and make the film, which is, uh. It still feels like a bit of a black box, to be honest. Sometimes things just land and sometimes they don't. There was a year where CBC was looking for they had a bit of a funding, ah, envelope available, and they were looking for one more film for their absolutely canadian stream for emerging filmmakers. So for a while, it was a lot of emerging filmmaker stuff. Yeah, that was the project that I directed and produced for CBC.

It was a bit of a pitch process with all those, like, how did you get good at writing grants or putting pictures together, like the format and all that? Like, how did you learn knots out of it? Were you getting help from someone or how does that process look like with that?

No, I just did it, honestly, some of those, and I don't think it's like this anymore, but some of those. I wrote one line in an email, like, somebody had money, they were looking around for ideas, and I had a couple of ideas. And the most important thing you can have, I mean, a flashy pitch deck is great, but you got to have a great idea. And the most important thing you're going to write is your logline. So can you explain to somebody what your story is in one sentence? Because I think that's what hooks people and that's what gets people interested. It doesn't matter how long it's going to. There's a whole bunch of details that go into a pitch, but at the beginning, is it a good idea? Does it sound like an interesting story and does it fit what that funder is looking for? So if there's one thing you're going to do, it's like you can put a ton of time and effort into writing a really extensive pitch. But what is your story? I think that probably helps. Although coming from my little pitch document, sometimes all I had was the idea, and then there's a lot of. I've mostly pitched things with one or two pagers, so it have maybe a couple photos and a description, a synopsis, the creative team, and just kind of the basics, sell them on that.

How much are you having to convince them via dialogue? Is this something like, hey, send it via email, or is this jumping on a phone call or getting front of a panel? Or how are you getting this?

If possible, meet people in person every time, every opportunity that I get, whether it's at a conference or a film festival, if you can meet somebody in person and introduce yourself, you don't want to overwhelm people. It doesn't mean that they're going to respond to you, but just having a personal connection with somebody, I think makes a huge difference for them to even look at your pitch. So going to film festivals, going to conferences? Yeah, anywhere that you can just have Facetime with the executive producers and the funders is huge.

That's my next question is, who are these people? So you're seeing executive producers and founders, you go to a film festival. How do you know these people? Are you doing research beforehand? Are you like, when you meet them, are you just like, hey, by the way, boom, logline, do you have time for coffee? How does that approach work? Um, when it comes to tack and.

Scene, I don't think I've been that organized, to be honest. A lot of it for me has been finding people whose work I like and people who I get along with and would like to work with and then connecting, like, just making genuine personal connections with those people. Yeah, a lot of it is really gut feeling for me. It's less like, oh, those people have the money, I need to go meet them. I probably should do a bit more of that and more like, these people are really interesting. They made such a cool film, and I'm already at this film festival and I run into them in the pub later and you're like, that was amazing. Tell me about how you made it. Where'd you get your funding from? How did you do it? And the thing with documentary filmmakers, I think, is the process is so long and difficult and kind of lonely at times. So people love being told that you like their work. People love being flattered in that way. But also, when you also are making documentary films, people just love to connect with each other because there's a lot of time that you spend, like in that dark room in the edit or planning and execute, and it's just so much work when you meet somebody else who's really keen. I've been really surprised at how generous people have been with their time. So, yeah, a lot of it has just been building a network of people whose work I really like and then going from there.

Securing Funding

And obviously there's different levels of funding. Like, I mean, for someone just getting started out, like, how, how much would you expect to try to find for funding? And how does that tie into, like, the product or if it's a make?

I think as a, as a. I feel like now I'm a seasoned professional, I've been doing this for ten years. I'd say, like, make sure you're getting paid for your time, and everybody you're working with is getting paid for their time. But realistically, I think when you're getting started, if you can get enough money to cover your expenses and you can go make something that you really care about, that you're passionate about. There's a lot to be said for just doing what it takes to make something and getting it out into the world, because I think what a lot of people are looking for is, yes, is this technically brilliant and super creative and incredible story? That's all great, but also, can you deliver? Do you have a vision? Are you able to execute? Are you able to capture a real story? And if you can make something yourself and show that you can do this process from start to finish, I think it's a lot easier to go and get bigger funding. So what I did was I just go and make things, and somehow that often ended up in sales. Like, I put it out into the world and somebody would buy it. Like, Red Bull TV bought my first climbing short, and that kind of covered the hard costs, more or less. But I don't know that you can go into making documentary film if you're counting to make money from it. I think if you make enough documentaries, you end up making money like, it ends up working out, but you kind of have to commit with the uncertainty.

Yeah, it sounds like there's gonna be a lot of love and passion behind it. You open this no matter what, and as a result, a living will come from it at some point based off.

Honestly, I think that's it. I think that's it. You just make things, and then you get to make more things. And the better the things are that you make, the easier it is to get the meetings with the people who have the money.

Simple formula, guys.

Yeah. Go out there and make something and make something you're passionate about and. Yeah. So you probably remember my sticky notes. When I'm storyboarding a film, I have sticky notes for every scene, and they can move around on the wall. But recently I've had more sticky notes just on my wall for motivation. And a couple of the ones that I've had are done is better than perfect and embrace rejection. So you just need to make things and you need to finish them. So that's something that I've told a lot of new filmmakers, is that if you have a project in mind, I mean, how many projects do all of us have just sitting on hard drives that have never seen the light of day? And it's all well and good to say, like, I want to make this the best story that it can possibly be, but it's not the best story it can possibly be if you never share it. So if you can find a way to tell a story, but give yourself a deadline and something that you're actually accountable for, like, is there a film festival deadline or like a pitch deadline and you need a sizzle reel for. Is there something that means something that you care enough about? Like you need to find your why? What are you trying to do? And then you need to make something. You need to put it out in the world, because intention does nothing. You need to create, and you need to share.

Yeah, I like that. That's some good advice right there. Micro people.

Mhm.

Um, and so you mentioned sizzle reel pilot. How much did that play into things? I would you have an idea? There's some idea of funding our grant. Like, uh, how much does the pilot plan to it? Are you still funding that? How did that go in the past that process?

I haven't done a lot of sizzle reels, to be honest. I've done a couple where, I mean, a lot of the pitching process that I have done, and I don't know if this is totally accurate to what the, uh, industry looks like right now, but a lot of things I've done are, like, doing enough work to share your vision, to show, like, what kind of a film you want to make, how you want to make it, what the story is. But on a lot of the projects that I've made, that I've produced, a lot of it was like, this is a documentary. I don't know what's going to happen. Here are my ideas, and here's what I think it's going to look like. But we're going to go out there and follow the story as it unfolds. So I know that that can be a big part of the funding process for me personally, just being just me, um, I don't always have the time or the energy to make a whole sizzle real. So it's not something that I've done a lot of, but I could see it being important for like, a lot of the bigger budget stuff.

Pre-Production Process

Okay, so you have an idea, you find some funding. Tell me about the pre production process. So, cool. We've got x amount of dollars idea now announce.

I mean, you got to make your budget, you got to make your schedule. My budgets for documentary, there's often I try to include a really large contingency because you just don't know. And this is one of the things with having, with being able to wear all the hats is like, I can move things around as needed. So if I'm paying myself as the director, the producer, the cinematographer, the primary DP, and, you know, an assistant editor or something like that, then I can move budget around as I need to, to get what I need to get. And the way that I've made docs, like my biggest project, I finished in 2021, and that was a two year process. I went in with a pretty loose idea of how it was all going to come together, and I figured I would just figure it out as I went. And it did. And it was a little too difficult, but it was a lot of like, okay, what is actually happening? What do I need to make happen? I captured this climber doing this huge link up of ice climbs in the winter. So there was something that was time sensitive, made that happen. And then I got the funding, and then I was able to sit down, give the footage to an editor, put everything together, and build out the story from there. So then it was interviews and building the story and figuring out what other scenes and pieces that we needed. But the biggest thing that, the way I started on that one was, here's something that's time sensitive. I'm going to capture it no matter what. And then I built from there. But I think every documentary is a little bit different. It depends on what kind of a timeline you have, what kind of a team you have, what kind of a budget you have. When I'm doing a lot of the work myself, it can be very flexible, but if you have deliverables in a tighter schedule, I think you'd need to do a lot more planning and pre production. But that means you're not as nimble to follow things if they changed.

Yeah, sounds like more like making a lease plan, having a budget somewhat flexible, and then putting yourself in the seat where you have control over maneuvering that based on what m ends up playing out. Is that what I'm hearing?

Exactly, yeah. And just showing up, that was one of the biggest things I've learned is you can plan all day, but if you're trying to kind of get in behind the scenes with people and tell a story that's very real and maybe a little bit gritty, you just need to be in the right place at the right time. So giving yourself, uh, every opportunity to make that possible. So I go out to canmore for two weeks and then be available and then get an interview with somebody when they could give it, or go and film some ice climbing when the conditions were all right for it. I'm always shocked with projects like that. From my two pager that I pitched with at the beginning, there's a lot of, okay, here's what happened, and we're going to follow this healing journey here's what we think is going to happen. And from that to like, you know, a, uh, full two years later when the film is done, I'm always surprised at how close the finished product is to the pitch, but the pitch has so much uncertainty to it. But when, you know, like, it's about this incident and it's about this healing journey, you don't know how you're going to get to the end point. But if you follow it for long enough and you're there and you're putting in the time, then there's a lot of trust in the process, at least for the way that I've done it.

I think that's what's maybe different about writing filmmaking from, you know, I'd say being a commercial or something like that. It's like you said, you just pump yourself down somewhere for two weeks and you kind of just let things unfold. Like, okay, this athletes wants to train early this morning, I'm sure. Or like, all their weather's opening up today, so we got to do a big push or whatever it is. Whereas in commercial world, it's not like that. It's like we got two days rain air trying, and we're making it work and we will adjust accordingly. So I think it's just like a whole other. It's almost like, um, a cool part of our document. So, Mikey, is it becomes like your life. You're just like, I'm going to go embed myself into this sun culture, whatever you're telling a story of, and then embody that essentially for weeks and, um, or months or years.

Exactly. And that's the thing. There's so many different ways you can make a documentary and, like, the understanding of what a documentary is. I've heard somebody say it's the intersection between journalism and art. So a documentary can be anything from honestly, pure art, but it's real life to, like, I guess the journalism side of it is a different. Okay, so this is now maybe a triangle, because there's also a way, there's a lot more content that is documentary in nature, because it's real life stories, but it's also highly produced or more, maybe controlled or higher production value, but that doesn't mean the story's less true. It just maybe is more polished. So there's just so many different ways you can make a documentary. And I think I could learn from the commercial world in terms of just like, this is what we need to do, let it get it done. Because it's really personally draining to just show up and see what happens and hope it works out. Like, I found it very, very stressful. But then I've also got to, you know, I really enjoy that uncertainty, so I could use a little bit more planning, I think.

Production Process

So we're now landing in the production side of things. So what does production for other look like? Does it mean, like, okay, you have your me, and you were just telling me before you jumped on air that you've been working with someone doing audio specifically for you on this last Olympic shoot, and it was so relaxing, helpful. Uh, what is the normal shoot when it comes to production? Like, you're grabbing your small setup, you're in the field just by yourself, or how does that look?

Well, I wouldn't say that there's any normal production per se, but I would say that the type of filming that I really enjoy is where I also filmed on the North Shore search and rescue, the tv series. So I worked on that, uh, when they were filming in Squamish, and that was also, like, mirrorless cameras. I think my favorite style of filming is still, I'm available when something's happening, and I'll show up and capture it in whatever way is possible. Yeah. So for me, being small and light is really helpful and being really nimble. And then for the search and rescue show, we had multiple tentacle sinks and a couple gopros, a handful of GoPros, a plethora of gopros, and then a gh five s. And so when we go out into the field to film a rescue, it was like, okay, we got to put mics on the key people. Gopros on the key people, maybe the helicopter. And then I'm there with the camera to capture whatever else is happening. So you're just thinking about, like, what's actually happening right now, I need to stay out of the way, and how can I cover it as well as possible? So that's my favorite style of filming. And with this Olympic shoot, it wasn't that different. We had to plan a little bit more because, uh, we'd have to schedule things with the athletes. But it's still very, like, very documentary in nature. You're showing up, the venue is changing every day while they're building it before the event starts, there's sound issues. There's, you know, people of changing schedules, or they have to go for, um, their physio appointment. Like, whatever comes up, you're just very adaptable. So you're just there and you're ready, and you follow things truly as they unfold. Yeah, that's. I do like it. That's the thing. Like, I really like the uncertainty. And I know that it's difficult and stressful, but I just love being in it. And it kind of feels like you're not that. I don't love whitewater kayaking. I find it terrifying, but it feels a bit like white water kayaking. You just, like, jump into the river and see where it takes you. And, you know, sometime at the end of the day, you're going to be done, but in the meantime, you're just in it, and it takes a hundred percent of your attention. I'm just so present and focused with people when I'm filming like that. Um, yeah, that's what I like production to look like. For me, that's when I feel most, like, alive and engaged in the story.

Yeah. And I think that's what that speaks to, like, the, I don't know, the true documentary filmmaker, because ultimately, like, people who go to it, like, love a nine to five and plug in, plug out, and, like, this is the farthest thing from it. Like, if that's your thing, like, you're not a filmmaker. M some people thrive on certainty and scheduling, all that and sounds like this is the opposite of that. Is that primary?

Absolutely. And, uh, it's interesting because I really try, when I'm at home, I'm putting a lot of effort right now. I'm trying something new. I'm trying to just give myself a schedule and some kind of structure, because I do need it. It's not like I don't like being disorganized and chaotic, but I do like the chaos of a shoot day, because it's within those bounds of, like, this is my purpose today. I'm lining, uh, up, um, as much as I can to capture as much of this as possible. But I have a purpose. And at the end of the day, it's all driving towards that one purpose. And usually it's like telling a story that has some kind of an impact. So at the end of the day, as long as I bring myself back to that, why, then I enjoy the process. But then in the rest of my life, like, I need to make myself the schedule. I need to exercise, I need to make sure I feed myself. I, like schedule out work blocks. I have so much choice in my life about how I spend my time. It's not that I don't like schedules, but, uh, I think I would find a nine to five really challenging. And I really like the independence and the freedom that this job gives. Me, I can really choose how I spend my time. Um, sometimes it's almost too much freedom, but then it means that, like, yeah, I can just dive in on these shoot days. And I do love it. There's nothing else I'd rather be doing. That's the thing. Every time I come back or take a. Take a break from this, and, like, there's nothing else I would rather be doing.

I can hear it. Your voice, like, you know, you're addicted. I can see it. I can hear it. It's cool because it means you're doing what you're meant to be doing. You know, I think that I love the word vocation. It's just like, the description of that is just, like, getting, like, doing what you feel most drawn to do for your career. Like, um, documentary filmmaking is Heather's creation.

Absolutely. And I really feel like. I just feel so motivated right now. I had to take a big break after that. That film I finished in 2021 because it was a really difficult project. And after I finished it, I was like, oh, I need two weeks off. I needed, like, it was almost years before I fully felt like myself again. I was very, very burnt out. And that's the danger of this kind of work, because it is a lifestyle, and it does take so much of just who you are as a person. But I've learned so much through that, and there's just, every time I come back to it, I can kind of check in with how it feels in my body, and I'm like, that's what I want to do. That is a really cool job. I don't want to sacrifice the rest of my life, per se, but I will move a lot of things around to make this career possible. And this is something that I want to keep doing, you know, for as long as I can work. Wow. I'm really, like, I feel very strongly about this.

I would, uh. Yeah, it's what you're supposed to be doing. I friggin love that. I mean, that's what this podcast is about, is, like, diving into, like, figuring out how we get to make a life in the living, you know, from what we love to do behind the lines.

So, like, yeah, I love that.

Handling Burnout

But you just sit on something important, and that's burnout. And you just said, it hit me so hard to potentially years to recover from. So let's just dive into that for a minute. Is, I think that's an important one, especially in documentary filmmaking. So what were maybe the mistakes, perhaps, or things, looking back that, uh, you could have told Heather, hey, look, you're about to burn out super hard and eventually take a lot of time to recover. What would you tell yourself looking back to avoid that?

Oh, so many things. The biggest thing is that you have to take downtime. Like, I've learned a lot about, you know, my nervous system and how it operates. The thing that I like about filming documentaries is that you're at this, like, high level of performance and presence, but you can't maintain that all the time. And the thing with that project was that it took up so much of my life, and I was wearing so many different hats, and I didn't have the support that I needed in any way. Like, it was also a film about trauma in the mountains. And I hadn't been to therapy before, which now, in retrospect, is like, man, I should have had. So it was a few things. It was like, one of the things was like, the subject matter was difficult. And so what I do, if I went back to help myself with that, is just put, like a therapist or a counselor in the budget from the beginning to say, this is the story. This is how I'm thinking about telling it. Am I doing this in a way that's psychologically healthy for myself? And am, um, I doing this in a way that is responsible to the participants of the film?

Wow, that's super cool. Uh, put a therapist in the budget. I've never heard someone say that, that's amazing.

110%. I can't recommend it enough. And I found somebody who's been really wonderful, and she works with a lot of people in the film industry, and she's very matter of fact and has just made such a huge difference for a while. I talked to her about the film project. I started going because I had to. I was on my last interview and I was interviewing this guide about, you know, one of the worst days of her life, when a client died in an avalanche incident. And I think I cried. Oh, this is so raw. I'm going to share it anyways, I, uh, cried all the way there, and it was like an hour and a half drive. And then I cried most of the way to the hotel I was at that night, which was probably another 2 hours. And I got to the hotel and I was like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. I'm holding too much. And I didn't have boundaries around. Okay, this is something that has happened, but it's not happening to me. And it's also, this is something that's happened to these people. And it's really difficult to witness that, but it's also not something that I can change, you know? And, like, what I'm doing is powerful and this is helpful, but, like, I need to draw boundaries around how much I let that affect me. So that was the first thing, was the subject matter. So there's, there's three things. The film was also bigger than I was ready to do, and I was doing too much of it by myself.

Before we, before we jump ahead, I just want to say, um, do you mind name dropping the therapist that you said this works with filmmakers? No.

Yeah, I recommend her to people all the time. It's Lena Hayman. It's a point of view. Counseling. Oh, Lena. I'm going to send this to her. She's been really, really helpful. Anybody who fits for you, like, finding somebody who you can talk to who has this, like, a good psychological grounding on, like, what we put ourselves through as filmmakers is really helpful. And in that case, the subject matter, she was really able to advise me on how to best proceed with some of just the subject matter. Yeah, it was difficult.

Yeah. And I'm a huge advocate for, like, just the men that the whole side of what we do. I mean, I'm a huge proponent of, uh, counseling. And, like, just ultimately, I think I'm so underestimated in what we do is, like, not even just as documented filmmakers, just as, like, freelancers or just as humans having experience on a planet. You know, I think underestimate, like, we put so much time and money into, like, the next shiny lens or the trip to wherever or whatever thing, and it's just like, man, what about, what about all that, like, depth that you've never, what things you haven't, like, looked at or what is holding you back from becoming the best version of yourself and like, okay, yeah, let's image traumas. Let's unpack, uh, the wounds that exist in the past. And I just think that's such, like, a. I don't know, I value that a lot. And it's something that had a deep impact in my, my life. And as I dive into those things, it's just opened up so many doors for myself when it comes to, like, becoming a better version of myself at work or it's what I love to do. So, yeah, it's cool that you've been able to kind of crack that open in the documentary space, specifically.

Yeah. Oh, I'm glad to hear that you've had a good sort of learning process with that, because I think it's also, I don't know. Therapy has been really interesting because it's as creatives and as filmmakers like, you put so much of yourself into your work, no matter what kind of work you're doing, and there's so much rejection and there's long hours and, like, there can be a lot of, you know, you're really. When you're on set with people, you're working with all kinds of different people and personalities, and you're doing long days, and it can be really high stressed and just having some kind of support to, like, uh, just somebody to talk through, like, those relationships and, like, the vulnerability that comes with, like, creating for a living is huge. It's just huge. It's just. Yeah, I think, yeah, I really value the journey that I've been on. Like, it's been really difficult, but like you said, you just get to, like, crack open all these things about who you are. And. And I think with documentaries specifically, I've also just learned so much more, like, gentleness and empathy and non judgment for myself and for my subjects. Like, I learned it for the people that I want to film, but then I've also learned to apply that to myself, and it's just made me a better human in, like, all parts of my life to just kind of observe and. And accept things as they are and then document. And so that's part of my career, but that's also just maybe a better person.

Yeah, I think that's a special thing about what you're doing is, like, I mean, everything in front of us becomes a mirror for our own experiences. And because you're taking these really, like, heavy stories at some points and, like, having to witness them. And I think that just, it kind of forces us to go inward and ask ourselves the same questions that our subject matter is experiencing for themselves, hence what we're trying to do for our audience when they're watching the film. So, yeah. Uh, to be too empathetic is obviously them impacting mental health.

Exactly. And I didn't really know much about what boundaries were for a while, so part of it has been learning, like, when I can show up for people and when I can't and how to help people, whether that's, like, film subjects or friends. Like, when can I give my time and my presence to people? And when do I have to say, like, I can't do that right now, but here's what I can offer. Yeah. Healthy boundaries. Super important. And especially around work. Like, that goes for those relationships with the people you're working with. But also clients. And, like, people can ask for so much in the film world. And I'm so impressed again and again by people I've worked with and how much we give to our jobs and our careers, and just so many people go above and beyond and are so, like, you do these jobs, these creative jobs, because we love them. Like, we do them because we're passionate about them, but we also need to make a living. And I sleep well and, like, fuel our bodies and exercise, and there's so much, like, your health makes you a better filmmaker, but also, like, you do the film because you, you're so passionate about it. So, like, uh, where, how much of yourself can you give to your job? And, like, figuring out where to draw those lines has been really interesting.

Yeah, that's cool. I mean, it's such an important part. I think, obviously, you're selling, you know, on the flip side, that's like, Tyrion, Tina, you had to go through the burnout to learn all these lessons. But let's, uh, throw some hot tips on the mic for people who maybe can build some better boundaries and mental health barriers. Let's say, whether it comes to having counseling available, to having more of a routine eating and fitness, all those things that anchor more important in the process.

Yeah. Uh, one of the things I thought about is there's a difference. You really have to learn how to trust yourself, and there's a difference between hard good and hard bad. And I gotten to a point where for a very long time, I was in hard bad, and I felt very trapped. And that's why it took me so long to recover after that project, because I. I didn't have the support that I needed, and I didn't know that I needed it. Like, I didn't know what I didn't know. I. And I've learned that the hard way, but there's still a hard good. Like, I like long days, and I like challenging projects. I love digging into, like, difficult subject material. I still enjoy those things. That's why I got myself into that position in the first place. So when I was, like, on this job for the Olympics and doing a bunch of international travel, there are moments where I was like, is this the best idea? Like, do I need to fly to Canada to buy a camera, and then turn around, get a journalist visa for China in six days in a city that's 3 hours away, and then fly? Like, it's like a 14 hours flight to Shanghai and straighten to work? Like, is this okay for me? Like, is this healthy? Can I do this. And every time I checked in with myself, I was like, oh, no, I'm really excited to be here. And I have the capacity to see this through because one of the other things that I've told people is that at the end of the day, it might not feel like it at the time, but at the end of the day, this is just a job. And if you burn yourself out, you're doing everybody a disservice, both yourself and the industry, because so many people push themselves so hard that they can't do the job anymore. And I don't think if you look at it from a career perspective, I don't think there's really any point in going so hard for a few years that you then stop telling stories. So it's better for everybody if you get to that point where this is hard, bad, and I need to stop now, and you know that, and you can recognize that, that you're able to say, I need to step down. I need to take a break. I need some more time in my schedule. This isn't okay for me to do anymore. And at the end of the day, we're telling stories. We're not saving lives in the emergency room. So if something is a little later, and it has to be, that just has to be okay. You have to be able to put your physical and mental health first because that's what gives us longevity in this industry. It's a difficult thing to do. There's some real gray areas in there because it's always going to be some hard jobs and some long days.

Yeah, no, I like that. Hard, good, hard, bad. Never really stands out for me. So I like that analogy.

Thanks. Came both myself. I probably saw it somewhere, but I like it a lot.

You can claim that it's, uh, trademark.

I don't know where I got it from, but it is true. Like, I check in with myself every once in a while, I'm like, oh, this is hard. Do I want to do this anymore? And just giving yourself permission to quit, I think sometimes it's all we need to be able to say, nope, this is what I want to do. I'm doing this because I'm choosing this. That's the other thing I've been telling myself. I chose this. This is hard, but I chose this. And I'm like, okay, let's get her done.

Yeah, it speaks to the, you know, like I said, just like a, um, borderline badass, you know, in the intro.

Borderline? Yeah.

Ah, no, borderline. You're just straight out.

Thank you so much.

Post-Production Process

And just to kind of complete the circle of the production side of it. So, diving into post production, what are some of the things that, like, okay, you've got, uh, you've came back from an intense project. You're exhausted, but you've got a bunch of great footage on the hard drive. Like, where does this now process go from there?

Again, I feel like I've learned so much of this the hard way, and I don't have, like, a smooth process for this yet. Yeah. For that film project about the ice climbing, I would bring the footage back to an editor in Vancouver who was absolutely amazing. Love him a bit. I would give him a hard drive of footage, give him a rundown of what was on it, and then he'd look.

What's his name? What's the intro?

Chad Galloway. Hi, Chad. I'll have to send this to him, too. Uh, he was just so wonderful, and he was really instrumental in shaping that particular story with me. So he was also putting things on sticky notes and on the walls, and I think it was so valuable, and it was the first time that I had sort of the budget and capacity to do this. It was the first time I'd worked on a project where two people had seen all the footage. And budget wise, when you're really, like, scraping to just, like, pay somebody anything for post production, it's really hard to put in the time to have, like, multiple people in the process the whole way. But it's so important, and I think that's one of the things to, like, avoid burnout, is also to just share the work and have good collaborators. So bringing it back into post, somebody needs to watch everything. Somebody needs to organize everything, set up your project files. As I direct more, I really appreciate having somebody else just do that labor, and I'm also happy to do it for somebody else. Like, if somebody brings me a hard drive of footage, I really like getting all organized and naming everything and bringing everything into a project file and doing all the transcripts and, like, getting everything lined up so that the resources are available so that you can start digging into the story. So there's a lot of technical aspects to it, and then there's a lot of creative aspects to it. So I find I can do one or the other, but if I have to do both, it's just such a huge amount of labor that it's too much work. Yeah. And then post production always takes longer than you think it's going to. Make sure you budget extra time, pay people to do what they're good at, you know, sound, color, graphics, if you can, and give yourself time for QC quality control at the end, because it's always tough when you actually have to go and, like, export the files and deliver them. That seems to always take longer than, longer than expected, and it's always a bit too stressful.

Yeah, and I think that's interesting to hear. Like, the part about, like, uh, get it all organized and then there's like, the creative part because I've also experienced that where I'm also pretty nerdy when it comes to, like, the organization and workflow.

Yeah, that's what I remember about you. You're very good at the organization. You have to give me a masterclass in organizing.

Uh, it is something I'd be loved. Um, but it also has been like, you know, double edged sword, because sometimes I get so focused on the organization that the creative suffers because I'm just obsessed with, like, how organized it is. So, I mean, working with some directors, it's like absolute chaos. You know, you get one file from, I don't know, Google Docs, you get one from a text message, you get one from email. And ultimately it's just, uh, I've learned my own little system. I've built a notion. Obsessed with notion, by the way. You can kind of like, kind of break everything into one place. And I can feel like, at peace with, like, okay, I can build pizzas. They're collectively an organized space. There's some bullet points. Now I've deleted the unrelevant information, uh, the rants, and now we're just going to look at this, uh, concisely so that it's definitely part of my process. But to come back to the post production side, you said, like, leave room for the end, like, how much creative lighting goes on. Because I think I've seen this, like, you know, I show up, I've seen ballistic, you know, it's now like towards the end of an edit, and it's like, ah, should I keep this scene? Do we cut it? Should it be shorter? You'd send it for review to some friends. Like, how's that, like, final creative process look like?

Final Creative Process

Oh, good question. Yeah, so this, for me is very personal, and this has just been what works for me. A lot of the projects that I've produced myself, I also own the ip to. So then it depends if you have a client, like, if you're accountable to a client, they need to approve everything. But if it's just you making the best film that you can make, and you have creative control. At the end of the day, I find it's really hard at the end of the process to, like, you're just so in the weeds and you can't tell if things are working anymore. And, uh, you're just so. You've just been in it for so long, you can't tell if it's funny. You can't tell if it's interesting. What I would ideally like to do is have more time or more budget to put an edit down and come back to it and give myself more breaks so that you're not so, you know, in the weeds with all the details that you can actually watch it yourself and know, uh, whether it's working or not. But failing that, or even with that, um, I try to send an edit that's pretty close to a few friends and ask for feedback with, like, targeted questions. Does this work? What makes sense? What doesn't make sense? Maybe ask them about some specific scenes and then see what kind of responses I get. And the thing with asking for feedback, it takes a bit of work to be, like, truly open to it, but it's also, you have to know what to take on board and what not to. And I'll try to send something to, like, maybe five people. And, you know, one person's like, I hated the scene. It was the worst. And somebody else is like, I love that exact same scene. It was my favorite part of the whole film. And you're like, okay, well, that's some mixed, mixed, uh, reviews. But what you're looking for is, like, does everybody say, like, this thing didn't make sense? Or, I wasn't sure who that person was. Or like, hey, what happened to this character? I didn't. I didn't get it. And a lot of those things can be solved pretty easily. But because you know all the characters and you know the whole story, you forget that you cut something that, like, introduced that person or, you know, didn't set up that scene properly. So just finding ways to, like, flag the things that don't make sense and then the rest of it, it's like, if in doubt, you should usually make your film shorter. So cutting as much as possible, but also just, you just have to be done at some point and be confident that you did everything that you could. So that's why I give it to friends to do that last pass. Like, does anything not make sense? Okay, we can fix those things. And now I have to put it down.

Yeah. And you said somebody were taking breaks. Like, how much. How would you space those breaks like, you want to add it for, like, three weeks and then be like, can I need a wheat break? Or is it like, I want to have a couple days off in between three days of editing? Like, how braids will help your brain through that process.

Well, I think ideally, the first step of editing, I always found, was the hardest. When you have to watch everything and wrap your head around it and build your first assemblies, it's like watching a really bad movie for a long time, no matter how good the footage is. You're watching footage for, like, 8 hours a day, and nothing's really happening yet. So you're trying to figure out what the good moments are, what's important. You're organizing everything, and that's when my brain gets really fuzzy. So what I would do is, like, watch everything, organize everything, and put it into timelines where, um, I'm like, these are my selects. These are my building blocks. So I've, like, all. Sometimes I think about it like clay. You, like, go to the riverbank, you collect a whole pile of clay, but then you got to organize it, and you got to pull out the good bits, and then that's what you're actually going to bring into the studio to, like, throw your pots. This is quite the analogy. So it's just a step of, like, leaving things behind it every step of the way. But that first step is always the hardest. Watching everything, figuring out what you want to use, and then starting to build from there. So I would. I like to push. My brain's usually a bit fuzzy at that point anyways. When you're watching that much footage, I like to push through that part and then get to the point where you have all your assemblies, and then, like, put it down, strategize. What's next? Okay, I'm going to build that scene. That scene? That scene. And then once you've got the rough scenes, put it down, like, each stage, give yourself a bit of a break so that you can just come back fresh. I think that's. That would be the strategy, but it totally depends on the project.

That's where the sticky notes come in when you start to, like, break all that muck into different tagors.

Exactly. These are the scenes. These are the lines that are really important. This is where I want to put them. And then you can start to, like, organize things and move things around.

Distribution Process

I'm okay. So you wrap the film, and it's locked, picture locked, close down, sound box. What is the last step when it comes to distribution? Are people sitting down and seeing it's in a festival, what does that look like? How do you get it into the world?

Yeah, it's also unique and I think, I haven't done a feature yet. I've done a couple 45 minutes films where you really start to get into sales and distribution is when you make feature films, because I think they would just hold more commercial value. Shorter films are a little trickier, but they're easier to get in front of an audience. So what I love to do, just because this is how I got into the industry, I love sending things to film festivals and I love meeting people at film festivals. It's just so fun to come together and like, connect with people who share this creative passion. So finish the film, you deliver it to whatever your contractual obligations are. But I've always made things that I can share with film festivals, so then I'll submit to those and then often through those other opportunities can come up like that film. The ice climbing film, not alone, I think, is on a couple, like european country specific platforms now. And so there's small amounts of revenue from some of that. Not a lot, but like a little bit. You can sometimes get your film to a distribution company, but that can muck with tax credits. So you have to be careful about what those rules are. It just really depends on what you want to do with it. So if you think that you want to make sales with your film afterwards, I think it would be really helpful to know what your distribution options are ahead of time and like, have those conversations. What ive often done is ill make documentaries. The production is basically covered by the funding that I get, and then anything I get on the backend just helps support the process. And its never a lot of money, but I sold not alone to Air Canada and it was on the air inflight entertainment a couple of years ago. That was a really cool sale to make. So then it just depends on what you want to do.

How did that even work? I think a lot of document filmmakers, they might get to the end, but its like that digging part I'm oblivious to. Like, where do you, how did you think that you could get it on Air Canada?

As you know, honestly, that was, that was such a personal thing. It was just a dream for me as a producer to be on the documentary Canada or the documentary category of Air Canada's inflight entertainment. And when I finished that project, I mean, a lot of these things I do because it's a learning opportunity. Like, I didn't, it didn't feel like there was a lot of money to be made or sales to be made from distributing that film. But I just wanted to see what the scene looked like. So I started reaching out to people. I also, I like to say, uh, be polite and persistent because a lot of people in this industry are busy, but if you want something from them and you email them and they say, nope, I'm not available. I'm away for the month. And you're like, okay, cool, let's check in next month. And then I guess I found, I think I must have gotten connected with somebody who connected me with a canadian distributor who had a contact with Air Canada's. Like, whoever does the sales to Air Canada's in flight entertainment. And then I emailed that person a link to the film, and he said, thanks so much. I'll let you know if we watch it. And I was like, cool. And I emailed him a couple weeks later, like, hey, did you get a chance to watch the film? He said, nope, we've been really busy. And I emailed him a couple weeks later, and I did that a couple times until he said, thank you for sending us the link. We will reach out to you if we're interested. And I was like, got it. Thank you so much. No problem. And then a couple months later, he emailed me and said, we're doing the intake for the winter programming. Uh, we're interested in your film. Are you still interested? Here's a contract. And that was kind of it. So I just try to open doors until they're locked or they won't let me through.

Yeah, I'm hearing two things there. I'm hearing persistence, and then I'm hearing patience, um, and timing. So it's like, cool. I think this happens a lot, is like, we can have a great idea or, like, want a big project, but I, timing of whether that budget's available or who needs it or whatever the heck the thing is. So persistence and patience are like the two key pieces Heather is reinforcing there. So don't give up. Keep knocking, but ultimately come back to patience.

Yeah, I say polite and persistent, but also timing. And I think, okay, so my thought on that, it's easy to take things personally, especially as a creative, but a lot of the time, it's just, there's so many more factors at play. So it's not that you're, the idea is good or bad or your film is good or bad. It's just there's a lot of things happening in this industry at any given time. And honestly, I think a lot of it is just, yeah, showing up at the right time, but you can maximize your chances of showing up at the right time if you just keep showing up. And then if somebody's like, thinking of something or they're like, oh, we're looking for another. We have a 40 minutes slot that we can program for. And you're like, you know, who emailed us every month for half the year? Like, I bet she'd still be keen. So try to make people's jobs easier by just being there, being available. If you're keen, express that. And it takes a bit of work to not take it personally, but like, yeah, just being, just being present and ready for those opportunities when they are available.

Yeah, I think that's a great piece of advice. Like, staying top of mind has been the biggest piece of anything of my career. Is just like keeping in touch with people, being helpful where you can, and when the timing connects, they'll connect.

So, yeah, you have a spreadsheet, don't you, for like, keeping in touch with people?

I have many things, but yes, as one of them, that is one of them. I've been building a beautiful master plan, uh, inside notion, like a production workflow, so stay tuned for a potential future template.

Amazing. Well, I just have one in Google Docs, I think, because you mentioned that to me, like years and years and years ago. And I just have a list of people who I think are interesting when I contacted them. Yeah, it's not like super extensive, but just having, honestly, a list of names to go back to. And if I'm like, ooh, who's a producer, or I need a sound person who's based in this location, who does sound, who I've talked to before, and I can go into that list and it's so helpful to just keep tabs on who's doing what.

Yes, that is a huge piece. And, uh, yeah, mine's fun to, like level 5000 right now where I have like everyone's photos and they have cards and I'm like, last contacted on this date and then they have like tags with like producer, whomever it is. And the last conversation we had, like.

Yeah, uh, you are so organized. I would love to have you walk me through that sometimes. Like, mine is just a Google Docs spreadsheet and it's good enough, but it's not like there's definitely no photos in there.

Yeah, there's something weird for me that I love having people's photos. There's something like, because there's so many people we have to be in touch with all at once. I love, like, instead of opening a spreadsheet and seeing, like, someone's name, I'm just like, I love opening the program. You, like, look at all the faces and be like, oh, yeah, this person. Like, I'm like, look, that person. I want to connect with that person. Can I see your face? That's just like a. I don't know. For me, it's like an old thing, but I like it.

No, that's amazing. That totally makes sense, because I've looked at my list, and I'm like, I go to a film festival or something, and then I'll add people to it, and then for the most part, they're people I know and have been in touch with, and I'm comfortable contacting, and I kind of float those to the top of the list. But there's definitely people I've met in the past who, you know, we had a really nice conversation, but it was at a film festival three years ago. I'm like, ooh, which person was that? Uh, yeah, like, I'm sure I can jog my memory, but, like, oh, if I could help myself out a little.

Yeah, well, maybe I'll have a solution for you in the near future here.

So, yeah, please share your knowledge, share your wisdom. We m could all be more organized.

Advice for Women in Filmmaking

Yeah. Um, okay, so before we into, um, this wrap things up here, I'd love to ask one final question. And specific is, like, do you have any advice for women getting into the document if somebody can set up things? Because I know that's documentary filmmaking is a niche in and of itself, but I know. I think it's a very dominated male industry.

It sure is male dominated. And it's interesting being, oh, do I have any tips for women? I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. I think the biggest thing would be to connect with other women and, like, just share the experiences that you have. We just operate a little differently. Like, there's. It doesn't always have to tie into work, but we men and women are biologically, inherently different, and the industry is very. It's male dominated, and it's also, like, built in a very sort of masculine way. And I don't think that that's healthy. So I found great joy in connecting with other women who are creatives and just comparing stories and talking about, like, well, how do you like to do things? Or what are some of the frustrations you've experienced and then sharing stories and also just kind of building each other up I think it's easy to walk into a room where nobody else looks like you and feel out of place. And then the more women I have in my life who are creatives, who are professionals, if I can talk to them about that experience, and everyone's like, oh, yeah, I totally get that. I get that all the time, because I think when you walk into a space where everyone looks like you, it just doesn't register. Whereas I walk into a space and I'm like, ugh. Uh, I'm the only women in a technical role. Again, I am always aware of it. And probably the biggest thing to do would just be to connect with other women creatives and find ways to create your own sense of belonging in this world where it doesn't always feel like we belong, because that helps you navigate the difficult parts of gendered interactions. That's a whole can of worms, isn't it?

Yeah. I mean, is there anywhere you go to or have, like, had good luck meeting other women who are filmmakers or areas to connect or collaborate? How's that portrayed?

Um, two things. I mean, I've mentioned this, that I love going to film festivals. I just love connecting with people that way and watching films and getting inspired and having a bunch of creatives all in one space where you can just interact with each other in a really natural way. I think it's always worth making the time and the effort to go to places where you can interact with people in person. Conferences, festivals, screenings, whatever. And then part of it is, like, kind of just pounding the pavement and, like, looking for people who are doing the kind of work that you like and reaching out to them, I found that it's. I mean, I think it's getting easier as I get more established, but finding people whose work I admire and sending them a message and saying, hey, I really love this work that you did. This is what I admire about what you're doing. I would love to connect. Here's what I'm hoping to get out of the conversation. Like, I just want to connect, or, I want to find out what you're up to, or, I want to talk about how you did your last film. Um, would you be open to, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like connecting with anybody in that sort of, like, sort of networking. Just find people who you think are doing cool work and connect with them 100%.

Well, this has been an amazing interview. I was chatting with you. I think there's, like, so many great little nuggets in here. If you want to find your work or you.

Oh, I knew you were going to ask that. I don't have a great Internet presence. I have Instagram, and I don't think I'm that good at it. And I have a website, and it definitely needs an update. But on, uh, Instagram, I'm Heathermosher media, and that's a. That's a good way to get ahold of me, at least. And then my website's, uh, Heathermosher Caddenhe.

Amazing. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show today, Heather. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you so much for asking such great questions. It's given me a lot to think about, and I really, really appreciate the time and the effort that you put into these. Thanks, Marshall.

Okay, that was documentary filmmaker Heather Mosher. Heather is such an awesome documentary filmmaker and badass woman on top of it all. I encourage you to check out some of her work at Heathermoziere or on Instagram. Heathermojermedia in an effort to continually grow this podcast and help you make a living doing what you love, I have a request. I want you to dm me on Instagram arciatrupa and let me know what is the one thing that you are struggling with most and why is it so painful? Learning what my audience is struggling with will help me dig deeper in future episodes with guests I bring on and ultimately help us all grow as a community. In future episodes, I will be speaking with cinematographers, photographers, directors, producers, reps, and anyone who has decided to take this ambitious leap of faith at making a life and a living behind the lens. Stay tuned and subscribe to the channel on your favorite podcast app. And if you have 30 seconds, please leave me a star rating or review if you heard something of value, I encourage you to share this episode with a friend and help them along their creative journey. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on shot.