20. Matty Manhire | Director / Photographer / XR Wall / Innovator

In this episode, Marshal speaks with the multi-faceted Matty Manhire. Matty is not only a director and photographer, but he is also an innovator and a strong advocate for the innovative XR (extended reality) wall technology.

In this conversation, Matty talks about his fascinating journey from installing mechanical dinosaurs to carving out a successful career as a director and photographer. He shares how his genuine curiosity about others and understanding of the business side of creativity have been key to their success in the creative industry, how the XR wall technology has made the creation of commercials more engaging and thrilling for him, and how establishing authentic relationships in the industry is very important.

So if you are curious about XR wall technology, or if you want to know more about how you can thrive in the creative industry through your authenticity, then this episode is definitely for you. Let’s dive in!

Episode Highlights

01:12 Getting to Know Matty Manhire

01:38 Discussing the XR Wall and Advertising

06:29 Career Beginnings and Evolution

11:18 The Importance of Authenticity in Art

26:48 Building Relationships in the Industry

35:08 Balancing Creativity and Career

37:13 The Challenges of Pitching

46:25 The Role of Organization in Creativity

50:48 Finding Fulfillment and Purpose

55:33 A Rollercoaster of a Creative Career

🔗 CONNECT WITH MATTY MANHIRE

📸Instagram | @manhire 💻Website | www.manhiremedia.tv

🔗 CONNECT WITH MARSHAL

📸Instagram | www.instagram.com/marshalchupa 💻Website | www.marshalchupa.com 👥 Linkedin | www.linkedin.com/in/marshal-chupa-99a7921a8

📄 SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT

Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - www.shotlistpodcast.com

🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST

This podcast is all about helping emerging cinematographers, photographers, and directors navigate the challenges of making a life and a living behind the lens. From workflow to personal growth, creative vision to marketing, finances to production—every episode is packed with a wide range of topics to support visual storytellers in their pursuit of building a business and growing a career they are proud of.

🎧 LISTEN FOR FREE Apple Podcasts | https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/shotlist/id1645435800 Spotify | https://open.spotify.com/show/3m5203Y5yQ7wNXQhZBOmNV?si=f46bc0e937bf40c1 RSS | https://anchor.fm/s/5cb2e948/podcast/rss

🙏 LEAVE A REVIEW

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📱 GET IN TOUCH

You can also drop me a DM instagram @marshalchupa or email marshal@marshalchupa.com

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Shot List, where we talk about how to make a life and a living behind the lens. I'm cinematographer Marshall Chupa, and today I'm speaking with director, photographer, innovator, and RxWall enthusiast. In this episode, Maddie and I dive into how installing massive mechanical dinosaurs around the country led to building a successful career as a director and photographer.

The recipe he used to build so many connections and relationships fast that propelled his career forward. in one year's time, how being relatable and genuinely curious about others is the key to our success as creative business owners, and how understanding the business of creativity is just as important as creativity itself.

I've never met Maddy before this conversation, and by the end of it, it felt like I knew him as a friend. That just speaks volumes to his ability to be genuine and honest and open. And I think you'll really love hearing this real and raw conversation. I'm excited for this one. Let's dive in.

Getting to Know the Guest

All right, Maddie.

Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. I appreciate you being here. Oh, thanks for having me, man. So just doing a little poking around online. We don't actually know each other. Uh, we've just been in brief conversation through a few DMs, I think. And uh, I was just doing a little bit of research, trying to get to know you a bit.

And one of the things that I saw last posted on your Instagram page in the captions that said simple ideas executed well, make me really happy.

Discussing the XR Wall and Advertising

Focusing my attention and career around a giant TV and brackets that for some reason is called a volume wall bracket, uh, over three years ago, it turned out to be exactly what I needed to fill my cup in this industry.

Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that. That's what advertising is. And the best advertising is simple concepts that are executed really beautifully and effectively. Part of what we do in our roles in the advertising space is we solve problems. You know, how do we visualize something that communicates a brand message and core values, but then also incentivizes people to go out and buy.

said thing. So with the air miles project that you're speaking of, the problems we had to solve were the fact that it was, I believe the middle of January and they wanted to do like a summer shoot. So it was the perfect time to bring in that filmmaking tool, the XR wall so that we could shoot summer scenes in downtown Montreal, downtown Toronto, and then some driving scenes out in Vancouver while we could be warm and not wearing jackets and not in a blizzard.

So again, it was just a super simple concept of people sharing the possibilities and the benefits of this particular credit card all in one location. And it's a simple concept and we made it look really pretty. And, uh, there's something about that, that really fundamentally excites me and kind of keeps me engaged in this whole commercial art making business that we're in.

Right. And XR wall, like, uh, paint me a picture of what, what that is. So an XR wall. I mean, they come in all various sizes and structures, but the most ideal ones would have a hemispherical shape, about 270 degrees of essentially LED television screens that are stacked upon each other. And let's say the length of it would run about.

50 to 70 linear feet wrapped around and then anywhere between 30 and 50 feet high and then that would run into a really giant computer similar to those that would mind Bitcoin or for aggressive large gameplay. Usually it's called the brain station and you'd have people who are really experts. At unreal engine as well as the operation of that computer, keeping it at a certain temperature, being able to forecast crashes, things like that.

So it's a really unique new job and collaborative relationship. That's kind of come up with, uh, the, the innovation of XR walls. Yeah. Very cool.

Exploring the Guest's Background and Location

I'd like to maybe dive into a little bit more of that, but, uh, I'm curious, like how or where are you based to start? So I'm based out of Toronto, but then I've also got a cabin up in the Coerthas that I spend a lot of my time at.

Very cool. Yeah. I did actually see something on your Instagram about kind of your build from your rentals that you're doing. And, uh, yeah, that's like, looks like a little dream place. I'm definitely jealous and that's on my bucket list to have a little home away from home. So super cool. And it's a great feeling like a little.

Cool. Kind of nugget of homesteading in a way at the level that I can achieve at least. Yeah.

The Importance of Balance and Relaxation

And it probably feels good just because we're just so involved in like, I don't know, just the, all the tech and all the constant emails and phone calls and all that kind of stuff to be able to have a reprieve and just disappear into the woods with a cabin and a stove and a fire and keep it really simple.

I'm sure that just feels incredible. Oh, it's the best. Like last week, I think I spent. Probably eight to 10 hours a day, just like raking gravel and dirt around. And I didn't think about anything else. It's like pure meditation almost, you know, it is, it is without a doubt. It's the closest thing I can get.

I've tried sitting around and just kind of not thinking about things and not doing things, but the amount I can accomplish and just spacing out with. A labor task at hand has got to be the most relaxing thing that I and centering thing that I can think of. And that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we're just as entrepreneurs as driven creatives were, we're so wired.

I also have that amount of energy in my body. I'm like, if I don't run or workout or do something at the, by the end of the day, after all this stuff, I'm, I struggled with sleep. So it's, uh, I think everyone just needs to figure out what it is for them. And that sounds like mundane tasks as kind of like.

What brings you back probably to center or grounds you or helps you step away from the busy emails and the phone calls and. Yeah, it's a different type of exhaustion, the brain exhaustion and the physical exhaustion. Yeah, totally. There's something about the brain exhaustion that I think, I don't know, maybe it energizes the body in a certain way, where you're right, it makes it really hard to actually feel a sense of rest or relaxation when the brain's exhausted, but the body's like, I'm still got a lot left in me.

Let's go. Yeah.

The Guest's Journey into Advertising

100%. So how did this begin for you then, uh, how many years have you been doing it and like where did it all start? So I've been. doing advertising for probably about seven or eight years now. And then before that, I was touring around North America with this robotic dinosaur company installing these, uh, to scale and sometimes life size dinosaurs, robotic dinosaurs in theme parks and science centers and museums.

It was actually in Kansas City where I met a professional photographer there for the first time, Nick Vedros, and he invited me over to his house and I met his wife and he had these two mansions that were right beside each other that were built in a mirror image. And one was his studio. And then the other one was his home.

I just remember thinking like, this is incredible A guy who makes pictures in Kansas City has built this lifestyle for himself. I'm like, I kind of think I want to have my own version of this. So, you know, I studied his work and I asked him lots of questions and it must've been so strange because, I mean, he was hired to come on and take pictures of robotic dinosaurs and then ran into me who was just kind of like a crew guy.

For all intents and purposes, but we ended up hitting it off and, and we stay in touch this day, actually just, I go to him for kind of peer review and stuff. But so I came back to Toronto and as like a changed person, and I was also going through, you know, a really sad breakup at the time. So it was kind of like rife soil to make some, some changes.

So, you know, I ended up taking off to Peru to kind of heal from that. And I stopped. I'm like, I'm not going to go on the road anymore with this robotic dinosaur show. And I came back and I was working out at this gym over in the east side. And I met this guy, Matt Barnes, photographer. And he was like, you should come to my studio.

Not thinking anything of it. I didn't know anything about him. And uh. I show up at Westside Studio and it all kind of, that was it. And, uh, I started assisting for the photographers there and just like really nestling myself in and doing tons of work for free and fetching coffees and helping photographers out on creatives and Just doing whatever I could to be around it.

And, um, that really quickly evolved to where I was getting my own jobs. And then I went out on my own as a photographer and got repped by another prod co here in Toronto. And then this funny thing happened where I was like, okay, I'm going to become a BTS photographer. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be a stills on set guy.

I'm going to try and market myself as that. So I show up at this production company to talk to this guy, Dan Ford, who, if you know anything about him, he's a bit of like a godfather in the Toronto production scene. Okay. So I'm like, Dan, I just wanted to come and meet you and kind of get to know you. And he's like, Oh, great.

Yeah. So you're probably here because you want to direct commercials.

The Power of Saying 'Yes' and Taking Risks

And it was this moment. Or in my head, I'm going like, Oh, I was just here to, you know, try and nab a little day rate, maybe do some BTS or some stills on set photos, which for anybody who doesn't know stills on set is like, you basically sit around for them to shoot out the scene.

And then you've got about like five to six minutes to grab, like, A billboard quality photo, and then you go and you sit back with your two assistants for another three to four hours and wait for the next time when you have to spring into action. That's essentially in a nutshell, what stills on set is.

So I had this micro second of a moment to decide, like, am I gonna kind of lie? And be like, yeah, yeah, no, that's exactly why I'm here or just kind of reel it back and, you know, assert why I was there. And I decided to lie and it was the best lie I ever told amazing. I looked him in the face. I said, yes, that's exactly why I'm here.

I want to direct commercials. I love that. Yeah. And I mean, at the time it was, I had some exposure to commercial directing just through my assisting work. And I was like, I'd like to do that one day. One day I will maybe five years and then it became like a five second plan and, you know, I'll, I'll never forget that.

Uh, he was so encouraging and generous with his experience and the production company's money to getting me some specs stuff on my reel. And, um, it's kind of just gone. It's, it's way from there. And, uh, that's transitioned into being able to do some pretty cool shit. Over the last couple of years. And then now over the last three years, really kind of focus on my little baby of this XR wall and implement that technology into, into the commercial landscape.

Yeah. And I mean, there's some piece here that I'm seeing cause it's, I mean, from the very beginning, the transition from, you know, mechanical dinosaurs to getting into the studio and starting to assist and then like. Kind of fake it till you make it moment, you know, all those things.

The Challenges and Rewards of Being a Creative

What is that like driving factor?

Like, is it underlying all that as a passion? Is it like you, you just knew this was what you're supposed to be doing? Like what, how did you find or push through those moments? Because I know a lot of people in the beginning, they don't, I don't know. They don't have that necessarily drive that you're talking about or that, that piece that like keeps them engaging and pushing and going forward.

That's a really good question. It wasn't like photography was totally foreign to me. I mean, I was very lucky to have a stepfather who was really into photography. We had a darkroom in our basement. It was so janky and probably shaved like five years off my life because there was no ventilation or anything like that.

But taking pictures of my friends skateboarding and, and BMX biking and trying to get. You know, my photos into like Ride Magazine or Thrasher and stuff like that as a teenager. I never thought that there was like anything beyond that. I was just having fun. And I think there's a part of me that really is always trying to get back to that, that innocence of like, Oh, right.

I love this. I like to take pictures, and I was able to kind of use that and rely on that, but then there's also a part of me that really wanted to do something that I thought was cool and build a life around me that I like, and the passion kind of came from that drive, especially You know, if anyone's had any type of even remote success in the commercial world, the pay can be quite nice sometimes.

And when you see that number on a check, you're like, holy shit, all I have to do is do something that I think is cool. Yeah. And people will pay me to do it. And if I just do this, like Once a month, maybe twice if I'm lucky, that's enough to live a good life like man. So stuff like that is a driving force, but then also seeing my parents work so hard.

You know, there's some days when I'm on set where I'm like, I could never tell my parents what I'm doing right now because I know they've been at work since like seven o'clock grinding it out. And, um, all these things accumulate to a little bit of like a survivor mentality too. I think. As artists, we create best when we're in abundance mind frame when we're the cup overflows, as they say.

But I think there's also a survivor mechanism to that, you know, we don't want to go back to avoiding calls from debt collectors. We want to have some nice dinners every now and then, and put ourselves in a place where we can build up to the, to abundance again, and then overflow with and make something beautiful.

The driving force has come from a few places, but yeah, definitely passion is, is something that would be a fuel, but it's not passionate about making beautiful images. It's about, I think more for me, just, um, a passion of, of being able to be self expressive and navigate terrain where I can always just be myself.

Like as much customer service exists in our industry. There's also kind of a thing where the customer service angle, like if you just go hard at being a good salesperson, it's one dimensional. These advertising agencies for as faceless and heartless as they can be sometimes even the worst of them want to see somebody who's just being themselves because that's ultimately the core of artistic expression.

Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. Ultimately, the ability to create the abundance in our lifestyle if you can make it to that place is incredible and to lead a life. Where you get to be yourself, like what an incredible thing. I think that's the biggest piece for me, honestly, my, one of my biggest core values is freedom.

And um, I mean, I've been doing this full time for seven years now and you know, many more prior to that part time, um, trying to figure it out. And that was the biggest piece. Like I really struggled to think about going back to a nine to five or, or having a boss to respond to just because that is like the, my biggest.

Peace and life for me, so it's having that freedom, but with that freedom comes a ton of responsibility to constantly be figuring it out and hustling and being creative about how to make a life and a living doing what we do, which is what this podcast is about. And, uh, you know, it's interesting you mentioned.

Like the motivation to not go backwards to where you came from. And I was just talking to you before we started recording about, uh, how I started, uh, I used to run chainsaw for a living while I balanced photography. And it's like when I'm driving by on the highway and I see, you know, a couple of arborists, it's pouring rain out and they're like to picking up the, you know, the logs and chucking them in a chipper or whatever in the back, you know, I'm just like, Oh wow.

Like that was me at one point. I just like I cannot I cannot go back there like no offense to people who are doing that and actually I really love that job. And in fact, uh, well, I used to also firefight and work up north and all that stuff with the chainsaw stuff. But yeah, I just know that like, this is such an incredible.

Path, once you figure it out, because that freedom piece is there, maybe an important piece of that though. And I think I noticed that in a lot of peers, friends, or people trying to figure it out is, is that piece of like, how do you get up every day and motivate yourself to get out of that situation? Or like, where's the fire, you know, where is that?

Because I think I can see a lot of talented people out there, but then because of the lack of fire, or maybe it's like lack of. Business knowledge to balancing those two. And what do you think that piece is that people are maybe searching for that might, yeah, that would propel them. Yeah. It's so funny. I mean, being able to coordinate all those different acumens into one forward motion is incredibly difficult.

One thing that someone told me it might've actually been Dan forward actually, is that there's the creative business. And then the business of creativity and the creative business, yeah, relies heavily on self expression and finding a way to communicate your individuality and finding a voice. Whereas the business of creativity is finding a way to monetize that.

Yes, that's a good way to put it for sure. Right. And it's, it's difficult to be good at both. And that's typically why a lot of us try and get like a rep, a production company or some sort of agent and things like that who can advocate and handle the business of creativity for us and do the negotiation, be a bit of a jerk, say no.

But I think that anybody who wants to. At least have some inkling of success or at least create a forward trajectory has to get good at saying no to things driving their heels and not being afraid of losing clients and understanding that a client lost for that reason is actually a client you don't want.

In the first place, I mean, it's tough though, because especially at the start of your career where you want to say yes to everything, you want to build your portfolio, you want that real, you know, you want six spots that are strong and cohesive so you can show people that you can effectively communicate with your, your medium.

And it's a tough thing to be able to say yes to things without backing yourself into a corner where you become the person that people come to when they don't have enough. And they forget about surprisingly when they do have enough, because people, especially non artists, people that are diehard commerce people, they love to put people in boxes so that they can better understand them.

So, I mean, we see this all the time where, you know, what directors, oh, he's a comedy guy, he's a visual storyteller, he's. He's a kid's director, he's a animal director, you know, he's an aerial DP, things like that ways of compartmentalizing so that they can make easier choices. And I get it. That's the human brain for artists.

The goal is to transcend all of it. And not be niched into a corner stuff. This is a perfect segue because this is a question I got coming up here for you. But, uh, there's a couple of things that get thrown around in the industry. I mean, one of them being like jack of all trades, master of none. And one of the sayings I've heard is like, who would you rather hire a plumber or a handyman to fix your pipes?

Well, you're going to, you're going to hire the plumber, not the guy who does a little bit of everything. So there's a piece though that, you know, when I go to your website. I see short films. I see commercials. I see photography. I see virtual production or the wall. XR wall. XR wall. Thank you. I mean, obviously you're saying screw that memo and you're, you're being successful at that mindset and that approach.

So I'm curious, how have you been successful with that? Because that's a piece for me. Those are some of the approaches that I niched myself into what I'm doing now so that I could put myself in a box so that people could. Have that message of who and what I'm doing, but I do crave to get outside of that.

So I'm really, I am very curious personally how you've kind of pushed away from that. Well, it hasn't been as intentional as I wish I could take credit for, to be honest with you. I think a lot of it just comes from resistance. Which is a great thing sometimes and really damaging other times. I'm not, probably not even aware of the damage it's caused me, except for maybe in times when I'm wondering why there's no, no income coming in.

But I think for me, I just, I want to try everything and exploratory phase of my career because to be frank, I'm pretty unfulfilled in my career and where it's at. I don't think I'm a failure by any means, but I'm not doing what I want to be doing. I'm not getting the caliber of work that I want to be getting.

And to my own advice, I, there are some aspects of my career where I have become the guy that people call when they don't have enough and they forget about when they seem to find an extra few hundred thousand dollars. So, for me, it's all driven by, uh, just a desire to explore and to try things out. And, you know, with my short film flames, for example, that was.

Me having a lot of anger towards kind of the town I grew up in and just in terms of like gender constructs that come along with that and the desire to even prove people wrong. There was an executive producer that once told me that I would never be an award winning director. When she asked what my goals were, and that was me going like, well, I kind of have ingested that and believe that, and I need to find a way to find that self esteem within myself.

And so I'm going to go try and make a film that's award winning. And that happened to work out. And 27 awards later on that little short film that cost me two grand, I was able to build my self esteem. So At the end of the day, people are going to put you in boxes and categories and tiers, because that's just the way the world works.

And the only thing you have control over is the esteem in which you carry yourself and the efforts that you make to do what you want to do. For me, I wanted to find a way to make making commercials fun for me, because it became really not fun at all. So enter these XR walls, and then All of a sudden that sense of freedom, that feeling of when I learned how to bunny hop or do a kickflip, that same kind of, is it oxytocin or is that the, uh, happiness?

Dopamine. Yeah, that same feeling was when I was on set, you know, on an XR stage and collaborating with the people involved and the learning new things in pre production, being exposed to the incredible landscape of Unreal Engine, having the conversations with people who were at the forefront of it, dialogue with people that work on Marvel films.

It was something that really Cause me to level up and for the first time in my life, I was like, if I get pigeonholed as the XR wall guy, I'd be so happy. Interesting. So it's funny through that resistance. I found myself wanting to conform, but on my own terms. Yeah. And I mean, the connection between like your past job, like, I mean, going around traveling around building mechanical dinosaurs, theme parks, like, and the XR wall, it just seems like there's some sort of like culmination happening there of like your past life and your future life.

And, uh, I feel like there's like a, that's like the saying, like you do so many things in life and eventually they all just come together to be like this one complete thing that you're actually, you have all these random skill sets that join. I feel like that. Makes a lot of sense for you. Am I right? It seems to be happening, whether I like it or not.

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I've never really thought about that. I appreciate you for that. No, I think that's, it's cool. And, uh, I mean, I see myself like how much of the work that I'm passionate about shooting is kind of influenced in my past. Like you could ask me, what's my favorite thing to shoot? It would be, you know, I used to firefight in the summers and flying around helicopters, running chainsaw, dropping trees that are on fire, like all that stuff, or working up in minus.

30 Northern Alberta, 16 hour days, months on end, like really rough, tough environments. And that is what I love to shoot. You know, I did a passion project or a spec, you know, and what I shot was firefighter, a cowboy, a cowgirl, you know, diver off the tugboat with the wrench, you know, the mechanic with the sparks flying, all that kind of stuff, because those are the places that I came from.

Like I was the blue collar guy, but I always saw the beauty. In those moments, you know, the sun's rising because you're up stupid early and minus 30. And the, the, your breath is lighting up because it's backlit by the sun. And then the chainsaw, you're spraying all the sawdust everywhere. And I get to see the beauty in it.

Of course, the guys I'm working with have no, I like, that's also why I left. I was like, I can't relate to these people that they can't even appreciate a sunset, but, uh, or a sunrise. But yeah, I just feel like life does that crazy thing where it takes those. pieces of you and then sticks them all together.

And so it's really cool to hear that that's probably what's happening for you. Was that the project you did with Dave Delnia? Yeah, it was. Yeah, that was beautiful. I think that's when I first became familiar with you. Actually, I admired that. And again, coming from my background, I was like, this guy gets it.

Like it, it was such a rounded visual piece. I really enjoyed watching that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, a lot of love went into that. And, um, ultimately, I think that's what shows is like when we do things that we for ourselves or for that we resonate with, you know, cause for me, I was like, wow, you could, what if I had the chance to actually show these things that I always saw while I was doing the work, uh, but actually do it from a commercial level with, with the crew behind me, with the right camera, the lensing, the lights, the whatever.

So, yeah, I think that's really important for those. Getting out there getting started. It's just to make sure to find that like what you talked about that feeling of what gives you that first kickflip or bunny hop or you know, whatever that is. And then whatever that piece is and insert that into the work that you're doing.

Because I think if you can combine those two, the work will then resonate with people because it's what you love to do. And I think that just comes through. I love that.

Building Relationships and Networking

Okay. So how did you begin to build Relationships, because I think that's a really tricky one. I mean, I know you said you kind of through osmosis or whatever, bumped into certain people and like, what was the piece that helped you gain momentum and getting to know people?

That's a really good question. I would say right now, 95 percent of my work comes from cold calling. Okay. Like if I see a piece of work on Instagram that I love, I won't even hesitate for a second to DM the creative director that's tagged in it. And I mean, from where I'm at right now in my career, the motivation behind it, it used to be money because I wanted to support myself, but now it's just like, this is the tier again, here I am putting creative directors and boxes there and the work I'm seeing is at a level that I think is just outside my reach.

I want to connect with this person that I want to. I want them to see what I do, and I want to let them know that I want to work with them. So, you know, it's pretty aggressive and tactical. Definitely the aim is really precise. But what really got me out of my shell was, I think it was back in 2017. I kind of went on this mission for that year that I was going to do 50 coffee or 52 coffee dates.

So I wanted to meet 52 new people. That year and I ended up surpassing that. I think I did that. I met 52 new people on coffee dates before July. That says something about you. So then the total number went up to like 78 or something like that. It was crazy. But I just I invited like high level creative directors and agency producers and production company people, anybody in the advertising industry.

I just invite them up for coffee. And that kind of really just broke me out of my shell. I got really good really quickly through practice and just cutting through the fat, you know, confidence, shaking hands, eye contact, learning and feeling things out on my own. Like, am I genuinely interested in this person?

Because I mean, that's a surefire way to make a connection with somebody is to be genuine. Do I actually think this person's work is really good? Or do I just think I'm supposed to say that? So learning how to differentiate between those things and being honest with myself about my motivations was something I learned in that process.

But I had to make a little challenge for myself just to even. Get off the ground with that. And that's kind of how I work. I work really well with some sort of programming, whether it's in the gym or on my own projects and things like that. Just like, this is what I'm going to do. And there is a pass and fail that's involved.

Yeah. That's a really good way to put it. I mean, the first person I brought out the first week of January, we went to the St. Regis cafe and had a coffee and that guy's hired me now three times since. On like pretty big jobs. Yeah. Which came from a simple, a coffee, 5 investment. I am curious. Now there's some pieces that you did mention there about like confidence, eye contact, all those sorts of things.

What if we like role played? a situation because I think it's a big piece for people getting started is they just don't know what to say, what to do. How do I talk to this person? Like we don't necessarily have to role play back and forth, but I'm curious if you were sitting across from a new, you did this 70 plus times, so clearly you have some sort of framework in your brain.

What are the things that you're showing up to that meeting? Thinking about that, you know, helps you to connect to them, whether it was like, okay, find out what they're interested in and talk more about that or like little things like that. What comes to mind when, when you've done all these conversations, I would say right off the bat, the easiest way to be interesting is to be interested.

And I pair that with one of my favorite pieces of advice, which is you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason like that. So for me, being the first to ask a question is like something that I Used to subconsciously do and now consciously do it could be as simple as, oh, you like cappuccinos. Have you ever tried dipping your chocolate croissant into it?

Right. And you know, that sounds ridiculous. And even as I'm hearing it coming out of my mouth, but I know I've said that to somebody and that led to how they have a summer home in Quebec city. That's been in their family for three generations. And they like going skiing in the Chick Chock mountain range.

And that was like, Oh, no way. I used to do mountain photography in the Rockies. And that's cool. Wow. We have that in common.

The Importance of Small Talk

Small talk leads to big talk every time. And I detest people who tell me, Oh, I don't do small talk. Oh, really? You don't do small talk, but you want to jump right into stoicism and, you know, family trauma.

Like, so small talk leads to big talk, plain and simple. And this aversion and anxiety around small talk will be the death of you if you're an entrepreneur. And being comfortable asking somebody if they ever tried dipping a chocolate croissant into a cappuccino, A, if you're not doing that, you're severely missing out on the small pleasures of life.

But B, you're missing out on an opportunity to connect with somebody over pedestrian things. Because at the end of the day, none of us are epic all the time. We have moments of glory for the most part. We are all mundane pedestrian creatures that are doing just a little above nothing on a regular basis.

And then we get to do something extraordinary for a few hours if we're lucky. So why would you go around trying to connect with people with your highlight reel? This is an Instagram. This is real life. So bringing your mundane self to the table is good enough. And I don't think a lot of people have that type of confidence.

They need to be something they need to elevate. They need to augment, you know, again, it goes back to that desire of like. Wanting to be seen as always busy, you know, I'm always working, always busy, all super busy. Okay. Well, all right. Yeah.

The Art of Connection and Relatability

I think the piece I'm hearing there is you're becoming relatable, you know, you're finding a connection piece because ultimately we're humans.

We desire to connect. And I think. A simple understanding, ask the question first, or be curious about them versus like, okay, my plan is to come in here and then I got to like, make sure he sees my reel and then did it. You know, I think you're just, you're already lost. Yeah. You want to take advantage. You want to manipulate and take advantage of that person, right?

Your goals. Yeah. Yeah. Versus I think if you can step away from that conversation, knowing their children's names and perhaps like their favorite skiing location, like you mentioned, just like that, and then follow up later. And like, Hey, you know, and that gives you some, some tangent to then, or some piece of a puzzle.

Now you understand them and you can be a human and a friend and a participant in their life moving forward. So I think that's freaking great little, little nugget there. Appreciate that one. Well, it's genuine too, right? Because then it goes back to what, what are you doing here? Do you want to put beautiful things into the world?

Do you have any desire to do that? So, I mean, even if you have a tiny shit that you give about that creative director or agency producer, your mission to put out beautiful work into the world, which I would hope 100 percent of people in our position have at least some desire to do that overpowers any other desire, that mission is going to be a lot easier if you want to do right by that person and if you want to do right by that relationship.

Because if they give you a job, I don't even think a lot of people in our position realize how hard agencies have to fight to give us a job. Like the amount of work agency people need to do to get a script into our hands. And then, you know, shortlist us and then tell the client that we're the number one person for the job.

They need to believe in you. So as faceless and heartless as agency folks can be, sometimes there's amount of belief that they have to have in you because if they think for a second that you're going to fuck up their half million dollar, million dollar job, I mean, they've got kids in school, they've got mortgages to pay, they'll lose their job.

So it's an intensely deep and expansive and textured pressure cooker that our, our industry is. And I think at the end of the day, it does take genuine relationships to really make it work. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And a lot is on the line for everyone.

The Struggles and Challenges of Entrepreneurship

And I think that's maybe something I've recognized in some people who haven't been able to build a career as quickly is I feel like they go inward, like, Oh, this isn't the way I wanted it to look, or this isn't how I wanted it to feel.

Instead of like the people I see being successful are the ones that are like kind of stepping back from that. On set and like being the person standing beside the client is having life conversations and then just being able to trust your crew and, and being confident enough that it's going to work out.

And maybe it turns out like 10, 15%, not as great as you thought, but instead you took the time to be connecting with that person who hired you in the first place and to be there giving them confidence that it's all going to work out. That's like, what brings you back for the second and the third and the fourth.

Would you agree with that? A hundred percent. Yeah.

The Power of Authenticity and Genuine Relationships

Cause again, it, what we're both distilling down is just being genuine. It's sure. We all turn it on every now and then just to like get through the day or bring our energy levels up or put our best face forward, things like that, or just to even be polite.

But I mean, nowadays it is just so easy to tell if someone's not being genuine. It's so much easier than it used to be. That's for sure.

Balancing Creativity and Business

So you do a lot of things. How often are you pitching your work versus it coming to you? I'm curious because you just have the director's title there, as well as a handful of other things.

And I don't know, you did mention a lot of your work comes from just like cold calling or reaching out to people. But how often are you seeking it versus it seeking you at this point? It's a multi layered answer. So globally, I mean, 100 percent of my work comes from like my representatives. Sending me scripts saying, do you want to do this?

So there's that part of it. And then in Canada, because our market is so a saturated and be scarce, I would say, like, yeah, it's, I'm just pitching myself to get the opportunity to shortlist. I fight for that top three position. And when it comes to things that I really want to do, like the XR wall stuff, that is aggressive.

Pitching, hounding, stalking, uh, harassment of agency people or brands to accomplish those projects. That is like, I am the cavalry coming for those projects and it takes everything I've got. To win those jobs, you know, it's like people don't know about that stuff yet. And so you're just kind of like inviting them into like, Hey, look, this is how it could be done.

This is how amazing this tool is. Is that why you find yourself pushing that? Like, like that harder? That's because it's, it's kind of becoming the only way I really enjoy making TV commercials because it's so complex and complicated and gauging for me and the way my brain works, it combines creativity and technology, which is, is really exciting for me.

And I see limitless potential. So for me, that's, that's what keeps me engaged in that process because I really believe in it. You know, with that being said, I also love golf. So that same aggression goes into like, right now I'm, I just got shortlisted for a tailor made project and that's like, I'm giving it everything I have to try and get that.

And, you know, a lot of people don't know this, but like, you know, a treatment takes between 16 to 24 hours to put together. And that's just as a top three. And then again, you've got to present that and you got to make sure you make it through that entire presentation without saying anything that could misrepresent your vision.

And then the agency has to broken telephone that to the client. And then the client needs to pick between three people and even if the agency recommends you as their top pick, the client can just say something like, Oh, well, we don't really see enough of stuff with a golf club in their reel. So they, we can't give them the job.

So all these things I have in mind. Well, I'm trying to move forward without a fear of failure or fear of rejection or a cynicism from the amount of rejection because I'd say I probably win out of one out of every 40 jobs.

The Reality of Rejection and Persistence

That I go for, Oh my goodness, man, that is a rough ratio. And just to know that how much time it takes to put into a pitch and how much energy, how much fire it takes to like, okay, how to bring that convincing or just like that ability to deliver and then just continually get the failure piece like over and over and over and somehow convince yourself that that doesn't matter.

And somehow convince yourself that this is better than a nine to five job, three weeks vacation and benefits. And, you know, here we are talking about freedom.

The Paradox of Freedom in Creative Work

It's like somehow amongst all of that shit that I just told you, I somehow feel free. It's a very weird paradox. Yeah. That's like the rollercoaster piece where it's just, you're free, but you're only free As much as you're willing to put it, I mean, you still have to put in so much more than you would have with a nine to five from, uh, I don't, I don't know, it's just like a different level of energy, nine to five.

You can just wake up, roll out of bed, go to your thing. It's probably more robotic. Um, whereas this is like, you're constantly pushing and getting creative mentally creatively just on how to have conversations and how there's just so many layers to it, how to penetrate through the noise. Yeah.

The Competitive Nature of the Industry

I think the last time I checked, there's like over like 450 directors in Toronto.

And we maybe get 450 scripts from advertising agencies a year, right? So, yeah, it's hard to penetrate the noise. That's for sure. What a wild choice. We made Maddie. What the hell? What were you thinking? Uh, sometimes I ask myself that for sure. You could be in the woods right now. I could. Cutting down trees.

In the thick of it, some days I'm like, God, I could just use some, you know, chainsaw fumes and fresh air in some remote place. Definitely crosses my mind. But ultimately, I think if you love what you do, this is the biggest piece and why I started this podcast. It's like, I don't know. It just feels like a genuine.

Calling of just like, I think the word I love is vocation. David Duchemin used that word a lot in one of his books I read early on when I got into this into photography and yeah, just like living your vocation. It's like, it's just that piece where you're, there's not really another option in your brain, at least there isn't in mine.

And so it was just like listening to that calling and continue being like, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but just continually showing up every day. And doing your best, which it sounds like that's kind of kind of what happened to you too. Yeah. Well, I mean, let me ask you this.

You're on set. The ad is barking at you, asking you how much longer do you need to set up the shot? You know, you've got your grip, you know, you're telling him to feather it off a couple of degrees to the right. Someone brings you around like this little cup. That's got like some macaroni and cheese in it.

And then you got your first AC kind of like texting away on their phone or scrolling Instagram and like, Hey, you're kind of barking at them to like rack focus for you. So you can check something out. What would you trade that for? What would you trade that for that moment? Right there? What would you trade that for?

Yeah. Not much. I mean, right. Yeah. That was a perfect description too. I feel like that's exactly what happens. I guess it's all the same. Jesus. Your set looks like my set. Yeah. In that moment, it's perfect. Everything's perfect. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the fact that you can just hold a large camera and point it at things and people pay you to do that.

Like it just seems, seems, seems wrong in my brain. Sometimes when I'm doing it, I'm like, this doesn't even make sense because I like this stuff. Why are you paying me to do it? Well, the fact that you can create something that distracts people from reality for just a couple seconds, like you can turn on two or three lights and like, You know, maybe throw like a little LUT and all of a sudden this director monitor pops up and it's like, wow, that looks so much better than real life.

Yeah. And I mean, that's the art. It's like the canvas. How can I paint with light and lensing and the LUT? So I've been obviously that's that's cinematography in a nutshell and why I get fired up about this stuff. Do you crash after big shoots? Like, do you get real sad? Hmm. Interesting. Do you have a post shoot crash?

I don't know if I have a post shoot crash, but I find that the momentum is so important. So if, for example, I don't get a job for a handful of weeks or maybe three or four, you have like a completely dry month, which I did this year. And it's just like, you spend way too many computer days just trying to drum up.

do things without, you know, you're not, I'm not outside. I'm not holding a camera. I'm not around other creatives. It's like, when there's that beautiful balance of like, okay, you get one or two jobs a month, you're out a handful of days, you're forced into like doing the processes you need to do on set, uh, pre production, then post production, hand it all off, all those sorts of things.

And then you have those like, Windows opportunity in the office to be that like do the creative side of business, which is what we talked about earlier. Those can keep stacking and flowing. That's when I'm like, that's when I'm at my best in the slot. Yeah. It feels like, yeah. And, uh, in the pocket. Is that what they say pocket?

Yeah. Yeah. How about you? Is that something that happens for you? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I, I usually go dark usually about like three days after I catch myself and I'm like, Whoa, you are experiencing a polarity. Well, especially for me too. It's like before you and I would even get onto set, I've been deeply engaged in this script for a month.

I came across my desk, I was like, yeah, I really want to do it. And then I get briefed by the agency and then I got to do a treatment and then I got to spend three, two or three weeks prepping for the job and rounding everybody up and having meetings and bring this thing to the finish line. Then the pre pro meeting where you got to like get the client to sign off on everything that you did.

And then you get that day on set where it's just like, yes, I would not trade this for anything. This is, I am living my purpose in these eight, these 10 hours right now, these 10 to 16 hours. And then it's over, you know, you don't get to get into a rhythm. In our jobs, if you rely on rhythm for a sense of security, you're fucked in this job.

Yes, I agree. You need to be okay with just a complete palpitating heartbeat of a rhythm. And there's no cure to it. There's no pacemaker to steady it out. Even the best directors get hot for a little bit. You know, maybe they might go on a roll and get like three or four jobs in the span of six months and that like keeps pretty engaged.

But, um, if rhythm is your, is your fallback plan, this is not for you at all. I agree. And I just, I do think that weans out a handful of people who are actually really great creative people. They just, they need the consistency and reliability and, and the roller coasters is not for them like, and that's totally fine.

In fact, God, sometimes I just really wish I didn't like. Want to be on the roller coaster. I just want to be in the show up and roll out of bed and plug in, but I guess that's not what both of us are here for Maddie. Uh, I guess that's not what we're here for. No, I guess not. Otherwise we'd get off the ride.

Yeah, that's true. And you know, a lot about building rides. So get off the dinosaur. Yeah. Get off the dinosaur.

The Role of Organization and Systems in Creativity

I'm curious, do you have any specific like business processes or systems you love to use or tools, apps? I don't know, like for me, I religiously use Notion now and build, I have a production workflow built into it and I don't know, just any software or even from like the things when you get a treatment, like what steps you take, like, are there any pieces out there that you find really helpful that might help others?

That's a great question. And the answer is no, I actually don't. I don't, I just Googled Notion right now. It looks like I maybe should get this. Oh boy. Well, if you want to have another conversation, I feel like, uh, I could probably do like, I don't know, 17 podcasts on how to use Notion. In fact, I just sat down with another director, uh, yesterday, Andrea Winger, and we just went and had coffee and I showed her how to build her Notion homepage and organize her entire like business brain and her entire personal brain.

And, uh, that's definitely like a weird passion. I have of like, I don't know, building systems and processes and organizations. So if you ever want to get into that, we can go down that path. I think I need to, I think I need to, I mean, for me, I just lean on my line producer so much, like they are, I have like a human version of notion and that's my line producer.

And, uh, maybe there's an area of improvement here, but I mean, outside of like sunseeker Uh, no, not really. Okay. Not really. That baffles me that so many people don't have anything they like grasp onto for, I mean, you must have like, okay, like the things you do to build a treatment, like, okay, I go to this software and I find images here or like that kind of thing.

Or how do you save ideas when they come to you? Like you're just dumping those into I know like iPhone notes or where do those go? Yeah. I use iPhone notes a lot. For everything from interior design stuff, because that's like a side passion of mine. I'm in school for an interior design as well. Oh, cool.

And, uh, so stuff like that, and then script ideas or scene ideas or shots that I really think are really neat. I'll just load up my notes with that. But that is in no way, uh, An organized collection of things, right? That's for sure. Yeah, I think that's probably an area of my life that I could really take a good hard look at and optimize.

In terms of just like keeping myself organized, especially in times where, again, you have those dry months and you're kind of like looking around for reasons when the reason typically would be your lack of organization, you know, or foresight, things like that. For sure. I mean, it's encouraging to hear because I feel like I just keep getting these nudges from other creative people.

Because I love that stuff oddly, and I'm feeling like there's this need for it. So for any of those who are listening, uh, shoot me a DM and encourage me to perhaps come up with some stuff in and around organization process systems of doing this. Cause I do, I do love it and have a lot of them in place.

So yeah, interesting. I'm always just baffled by. Realizing that people don't have anything and they're being very successful and like, that's, that's just, I don't know the way my brain is designed. It doesn't work like that. So, I mean, all the power to you. That's amazing. And I think there's those pieces I've recognized and a lot of very good directors that it's almost the unstructure that helps them be so flowy and creative and just like, Yeah.

Adaptive and reactive. And like, that's how creativity works for them, which I just realized is actually how the opposite of my brain works. And that's why I'm not naturally a director. And I love collaborating with directors and can kind of pull that structure into like my own processes for the puzzle pieces that need to come together to create the vision.

So I think that's, yeah, it's an interesting difference to hear kind of how you, how you look at that. So that's cool. Yeah, I would say I self identify as like an organized ball of chaos. I love that. Yeah, I take responsibility for that chaos, which I think, uh, which I hope more people would start doing.

Yeah. I mean, you're doing something right. Clearly the chaos all comes down to beautiful things. If you just take a look over your website, obviously there's tons of that, um, to.

I'm curious if there's anything that's like really firing you up right now when it comes to life and work and where things are going right now. No, I wouldn't say I'm fired up about anything specific.

The Search for Fulfillment and Purpose

You know, it'd be totally real. I think I'm in a reorganizing phase of my, my life and my career. As I mentioned, I'm, I'm a bit unfulfilled.

And You know, I'm finding myself in that fertile ground where I've now amassed this vocation and wondering how I can better use it to serve my happiness. So I think I'm not fired up yet, but I can sense that that is coming for sure. And, you know, I'm excited by. Virtual production and XR walls and and building that particular aspect and trying to grow that more in the commercial world and have my name associated with those innovations and those steps forward and finding more creative and experiential ways of doing things in our industry.

That's got me excited. But I think right now all I can say is and all I know is in my in my core is that I want to take a risk. I really want to do something that's just feels a bit out of my grasp. And I'm not quite sure if that's the right thing to do. Doing like a pilot for a web series, which is something I've toyed around with the idea of doing, or, you know, doing maybe another spec spot that kind of better reflects the type of work that I want to do, or is it just staying the course?

So, I mean, sure I could, I've answered your question with like some sort of posturing and give this highlight reel of my accomplishments, but I think the more important thing right now is. To just create and co create better lines of communication of just discussing where we're at and how important and vital that is to our process.

No, I think that's an honest answer. And I think we constantly go through these ebbs and flows in our career. And it sounds like, you know, you've gotten to a place where it's working. You're successful. It feels good. And I also hear this amongst other creatives that I've been having this conversation with.

Yeah. It's like, well, what's the point? What's the purpose? How do I get through this next ceiling? And that's a big piece of what I'm going through personally myself as well, because ultimately this is all just going to be dust on a hard drive one day. So what are we doing, Matty? Yeah. What's the point?

Well, unfortunately too, not to, I don't want to sound cynical, but.

The Impact of Creativity and Storytelling

You know, a lot of what it is that we're making these days is, you know, people are hovering over the skip button on YouTube just to get past it and onto the how to video of how to build a lean to shed. True, true. You know, or they're scrolling past it on Instagram or flipping through on their stories.

It's uh, how do you find meaning in that when that's kind of the end result, no matter how good it is. So how do you find fulfillment in that? Yeah, I feel like, and I don't have the answer because I think that's our purpose here is to try to seek that answer. But the things that seem to stand out for me is like the process is the destination.

So like all those coffees you're growing out for all the engagement connections you're building, those life conversations you're having with people that, you know, that's why I started this podcast. It's just to have connection with people and have that experience of sharing, giving back to the community.

And it's not about the end result. It's about the experience we're having while we're here. I think as well as doing something perhaps bigger than yourself. So I feel like that's another piece that I'm exploring right now, which is why I'm doing this again. What is something that I could do versus as not selfish, but to give back to the community.

Those are just the little tidbits that keep coming to me. Uh, because I do know that all this stuff is going to be dust on a hard drive one day. Yeah. I think some, some other pieces I've come up with some other filmers have just been like, you know, in, in around environmentalism and how their footage can impact and make a change through story and all these sorts of things.

So really actually seeking out that, that answer right now myself. And I think it seems like everyone has a different one. Of course, we're, we're all here for a different purpose. That's beautiful, man. I'm fired up on what you just said. How about that? Okay. Well, well, cheers to the journey, my friend.

Final Thoughts and Reflections

Right back at you, man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. I didn't know you an hour ago and I feel like we really got to know each other here. So hopefully those listening, um, can enjoy that as well and, uh, have some food for thought. But, um, if people want to go find you, where can they go to find you?

Uh, they can find me on the grams at man hire, or they can check out my website, uh, man hire media. Dot TV. Great. And that's M a N H I R E. Yes, sir. Great. Well, thanks, Maddie. Thanks for coming on the show today. It's awesome. Really enjoy the conversation and, uh, I'm sure we'll be staying in touch. All right.

Look forward to it. Thank you. Okay. That was Maddie Mannheier. You know, Maddie is such a genuine guy who really seems to be staying true to himself throughout the wild roller coaster of this career. And honestly, I don't know. I left that conversation feeling filled up, filled up. So. Shout out. Thank you, Maddie, for that.

And I hope this conversation might fill up your cup today. I encourage you to check out his work on Instagrams at manhire, M A N H I R E, or check out his website portfolio of work of many things as you've learned at www. manhiremedia. tv. In future episodes, I'll be speaking with photographers, cinematographers, directors, producers, reps, and anyone who has decided to take this ambitious leap of faith and make a life and a living behind the lens.

Stay tuned and subscribe to the channel on your favorite podcast app. And if you like what you heard, share it with a friend or shoot me a DM on Instagram, letting me know you heard something of value because this one is sponsored by my wallet. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on shotless.