18. Christina Force | Mentor and Consultant to Photographers (Copy)
Join Marshal in this captivating episode as he sits down with the brilliant Christina Force, a consultant and mentor to photographers. Get ready to unlock the secrets that distinguish average photographers from the highly successful ones, as Christina shares invaluable insights on essential business practices and mindset shifts.
Discover the power of finding your "why" as Christina guides Marshal through the thought-provoking questions and prompts she uses with the photographers she mentors. Uncover the driving force behind your creative journey and tap into your true potential.
But that's not all – together, they take a deep dive into the crucial money mindsets that beginner photographers must embrace to foster growth and success in their creative endeavors. Whether you're looking to level up your skills or break through creative ceilings, Christina's wealth of knowledge and wisdom will undoubtedly resonate with and inspire you.
Don't miss out on this transformative conversation that will propel your image-based creative career to new heights. Let's dive right in and ignite your creative passion!
Episode Highlights
(4:30) Get to know Christina Force
(15:56) Transitioning to coaching and consulting
(20:52) Deep diving into the process of discovering one’s “Why”
(30:25) Rescuing photographers by encouraging personal work
(36:51) What separates a 2k photographer from a 200k photographer
(41:13) Knowing your worth, and other money mindsets
(59:36) Building and nurturing relationships
(1:09:19) Some things to think about in your creative journey
🔗 CONNECT WITH CHRISTINA
📸Instagram | @christina.force
💻Website | https://christinaforce.net/
🔗 CONNECT WITH MARSHAL
📸Instagram | www.instagram.com/marshalchupa
💻Website | www.marshalchupa.com
👥 Linkedin | www.linkedin.com/in/marshal-chupa-99a7921a8
📄 SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT
Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - www.shotlistpodcast.com
🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST
This podcast is all about helping emerging cinematographers, photographers, and directors navigate the challenges of making a life and a living behind the lens. From workflow to personal growth, creative vision to marketing, finances to production—every episode is packed with a wide range of topics to support visual storytellers in their pursuit of building a business and growing a career they are proud of.
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📱 GET IN TOUCH
You can also drop me a DM instagram @marshalchupa or email marshal@marshalchupa.com
TRANSCRIPT
Episode Preview:
[00:00:00] Christina Force: There's so many ways of discovering your why and I don't want to break into it in two minutes. So many ways, you know, you can ask yourself why seven times, why am I a photographer? Because I like photographing. Why do I like photographing? Because I want the world to look beautiful. So you delve deeper and deeper and deeper. And the process I have come up with is based around a whole bunch of those different processes. And ultimately, you have to dig into who you are. You have to dig into the dark stuff to really find your why. I think in most cases, if it's not that obvious, it's probably because it's lurking under a bit of messy stuff.
Introduction
[00:00:43] Marshal Chupa: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Shot List, where we talk about how to make a life and a living behind the lens. I'm cinematographer Marshall Chupa, and that was Christina Force, who is a consultant and mentor to photographers. In this episode, Christina and I dive into the main barriers, whether it be business practices or mindset, that separates the average photographers from the successful ones, discovering your why and how it is the bedrock of your work, how to start building relationships and working with brands, even if you're an introverted artist.
[00:01:13] And the mindset and leadership it takes to level up in the industry. Christina is truly an invaluable person to speak with if you're on the journey of trying to level up or break through a ceiling as an image-based creative. Her background in the industry, as you will learn, is deep and gives her an amazing amount of experience and knowledge to speak from when it comes to how to make a life and a living doing what we love.
[00:01:34] This is a great conversation and I'm excited to share this one with you. Let's dive in.
[00:01:42] Well, Christina, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I appreciate you being here.
What separates struggling photographers from successful ones?
[00:01:45] Christina Force: Thanks, marshall. Really lovely to be here.
[00:01:48] Marshal Chupa: So I wanted to do something a little different today, and I wanted to dive straight into a bigger question and then come back to who you are and what you do.
[00:01:56] The first question is, what is the main problem or barrier you see that separates the struggling photographers from the thriving and successful ones?
[00:02:04] Christina Force: Oh, goodness. Actually, there's a whole load of stuff. So if we start with talent, talent's a good starting place. And skill, that's really important. So those are your basics, right? You've got to be able to take a good photograph. execute it well and make sure that it's looking good and that it's going to meet the requirements of your audience, your clients. So that's the basic starting point. And actually I do see people struggling even at that level. They're just jumping in and trying to start when they're not ready. So that's the first thing.
[00:02:42] The next big leap for me, because I work a lot with photographers that are trying to really break into that big brand advertising world is the struggle I have with understanding that industry and it's nuances because that is really huge. So that's the next level. It's really understanding how to talk the right language, you know, what the expectations are of clients in that world.
[00:03:11] And then the last one, which I think is the biggest one is mindset. And that's just really having. Oh, the confidence and the belief that's needed to survive as a photographer in our industry. So those are the three. areas, which, which basically cover everything. Right. Yeah. Great. First question. Thanks Marshall for throwing me right in there. Yeah.
[00:03:39] Marshal Chupa: I just thought, you know, ring of fire kind of thing, right? Yeah, absolutely! Yeah, for those who don't know you, I got to know you a little in the past year. We've done some sessions and honestly I wish someone like you is In my life a little earlier because I think the amount of knowledge and. expertise you have in this specific field, specifically around kind of the business journey or like building a portfolio and the mindset stuff like that's, it's so huge. And I've worked with a number of business coaches over the years.
[00:04:06] And I would say that you are someone who is someone who is able to really pinpoint and answer these big questions in this very niche kind of bubble of commercial advertising. Whether that be photography or even cinematography, which we've, we've touched on together. So I'd love for you to kind of just explain a little bit about like what you do and who you are and maybe a little bit of where you came from.
Christina on Being a “Phototherapist”
[00:04:29] Christina Force: Sure. And thank you for having me here. And thank you so much for that lovely introduction. It's been really great working with you. So Oh gosh, where do I start? I am a photo consultant. I really have not found the correct term for that. A lot of my clients call me a phototherapist. Love it. I get that so much. Oh my gosh. They should call you as a phototherapist. Yeah. My husband, when people ask him what I do, I don't know whether I should share this, but I will because it's funny. He says, They say, what does your wife do? He says, she's a photo she's a photographer, whisperer. And she makes a lot of them cry. And I went, and he said, no, no, no, it's a good thing.
[00:05:12] But he walks past my office and. He hears people saying, thank you for seeing me. Oh my God. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all because, oh my God, it's probably one of the most rewarding parts of my job is that I do have this incredible privilege of being able to see people and to see who they are as photographers.
[00:05:37] As a brand, if you like, because photographers all have photographers and directors and cinematographers all have a look and feel all artists do, you know, you all have a visual voice. And one of the main things I think I do that is so important to the process of my work with photographers is. Uncovering that sort of essence of who they are and helping them see that it's okay to be who they are, you know, to, it's almost like giving them permission to be, to use the overused word authentic.
[00:06:14] And from that starting point, from discovering what their style, their true style is, their best work, by the way, their best work is always. Who they really are. And it's usually the work that you guys love doing. So from that point, everything else can become so much simpler. So then I work on helping them identify who's going to pay for that.
[00:06:40] And then we figure out right now, what do we need to do to your online presence to address, to speak to those people that will pay for that. And then we work on how to actually reach out to them one to one. So. That's the process I teach on my main program, my main mentoring program. Essentially, that's the kind of overview of what I do, but it comes in the form of a photographer wanting a folio to be made or a photographer getting to that next level, breaking into the ad world, breaking into a new country and a new market.
[00:07:16] That's something that I'm massively familiar with. I'm based in New Zealand. I'm from England. Geography doesn't bother me, but it bothers a lot of other people. So I was a photographer's agent 20 years before I became a consultant and New Zealand wasn't big enough for me. And I had to bust into countries all over the world and I did that quite successfully with my stable of photographers who were all from New Zealand or based in New Zealand.
[00:07:42] So with that experience, a lot of photographers come to me and say, well, how do I do that? So sometimes they need that kind of help. And sometimes they just need that kind of clarity. There's so many things that photographers come to me. About, but what it often all boils down to is that process I just, um, covered at the beginning of that question. So that's what I do, I guess.
Christina’s background and how she thrived in the creative industry
[00:08:09] Marshal Chupa: Tell me a little bit more about the background because I know building the agency and then transitioning into this world because I think that's kind of interesting to know. I feel like that was probably the building blocks that really help educate and inform the things you're teaching now.
[00:08:24] Christina Force: Yeah. I've been in the same industry my entire Creative life. I left school. I went to art college for a short while, but Really because an ad agency sent me I got a job and a little ad agency I was the youngest in my year at school. So I finished quite early in England and When I was 16, I decided I wanted to work in the arts. I wanted to find a job that allowed me to be creative. So my dad whisked me off to the library and said, right, we need to find a career that pays because you can't be an artist, which is a terrible thing to say, but probably a good thing. Cause I was never really an artist. And we found this job that was from this new career book.
[00:09:10] I'm giving away my age now. And it was about working in the ad industry and working in advertising and being an art director. And I looked at this, Oh, that looks like fun. That's me because I love people. And especially when I was 16. So I decided I wanted to live in London W one, which I loved visiting with my friend and my SLR. I used to do photography classes and we used to go into London and photograph a lot. And so I decided I wanted to live in London, W one and work in the best ad agency in the world. Which is really naive when you think about it because where the hell was the best ad agency in the world and who was I to think it was going to be in London W one. But it didn't even occur to me to question that. Anyway, got a job straight after school in an ad agency locally, and they decided to keep me on, I badged them incessantly until they hired me, um, to work in the holidays. And then they ended up keeping me on and sending me to art college. And then the person I was friends with there got a job at Saatchi and Saatchi and told me about a job there and I just kept going until they employed me, was pretty, um, tenacious and got a job at Saatchi's London in the studio, creating all of the kind of presentations for every pitch that came through the door.
[00:10:32] And at the time it was in this boom period where we were working on the massivest campaigns. It's for some brands that I cringe to think that I even worked on now, but basically by the time I was, I just turned 19, I was working at the best ad agency in the world and walking to work from my flat in London, W1.
[00:10:58] So I kind of learned really quickly that you just have to set a goal and you can, you can achieve it. And I did that for three and a half years, but, and I grew through, but I didn't, I tried being an art director and I hated it, hated it. But I worked around the art directors all the time. That was who I was working with and building those. You know, helping them come up with the layouts for all of their campaigns. And after that, I did some travel, but ended up in Australia in an ad agency back in Saatchi's there. And from there I, but I was determined. I wanted to work in photography. I was really keen to work on the photography side of things because I'd always loved it.
[00:11:42] And so in Sydney, I ended up working as a stylist and sort of bit of freelance at Saatchi's as a layout artist and a few other things around the photography industry. I just basically walked to every photography studio, introduced myself and told them I was happy to help. And that's what I did. And I was on a shoot one day styling and the photographer I was styling for was It's asking me to do something, but I was so busy yakking to the client, having a blast.
[00:12:15] And he was saying, Christina, can you adjust this place? Christina, can you, and I went and fixed up the clothing and after the shoot and when everyone had gone, he said to me, okay, Christina, I think you need to be my agent because I've been getting on so well with the clients. And I said, Oh, okay, cool. And he was an amazing photographer.
[00:12:40] And I was really, really lucky because all these other photographers wanted me to rep them because I was repping him. But I only ended up repping two photographers in Sydney. Um, I was there for a couple of years doing that. And then we moved to New Zealand. Uh, having some time out. My husband, by the way, was working in advertising the whole time as well.
[00:13:01] So he got a job at Saatchi's Christchurch. So literally it's been in my world the whole time. And then we moved up to Auckland and there were no agents in New Zealand and I just... I thought, right, well that we have to change that. So I started up the first photographer's agency in New Zealand, so it would be a nice part time job because I had two little kids and within the first few months I basically had no life.
[00:13:28] The phone was just going hot the whole time. These advertising creatives at the agencies here in New Zealand. Would desperate for help. They were doing everything themselves. They didn't have art fires. They didn't have good production support. None of the photographers had production support, let alone agents.
[00:13:47] And so I arrived at this time when there was this real need for this kind of support. So I basically just had photographers banging my door down. Every model agency in town wanted me to move into their model agency building for free so that I could use their models Which I didn't do and so yeah, I set up the collective force which went for about 17 years exactly.
[00:14:13] I sold that 12 years ago That's still going strong five years in approximately to the collective force. I realized that there was a desperate need. Well, right at the beginning, I realized there was a desperate need for production as well, production support. So I hated production. I mean, I could convince anyone to do anything, but that involved chatting too much, which is not a good, you know, you don't want to be talking too much as, as a producer, you've got to get on with the job.
[00:14:43] So I very quickly hired other people and trained them up to become producers, people who had those skills. I didn't have. And from that, that became a separate production company called our production team in New Zealand, which I also sold about 12 years ago. That's still going strong. So with both of those companies, we ended up working on.
[00:15:07] Every decent size production that was happening in New Zealand, even if it wasn't my photographers, I, I stayed out of it and I focused on my photographers and, uh, the production company of course gave us priorities. So that's my background. I ended up with working with ad agencies all over the world and photographers all over the world and seeing some of the biggest productions when was.
[00:15:34] And really on the map at that time, everyone was coming here to shoot, they were making Lord of the Rings. It was huge. So we sort of made the most of that time in New Zealand's history, filmmaking history. And it was a pretty, pretty good time. So yeah, that's, that's where it all comes from.
Stepping into the role of being a leader in the industry
[00:15:56] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. And then there obviously was a transition to seeing a need for what you do now when it comes to the coaching and the. Leadership side and speaking, when did that kind of take shape for you?
[00:16:07] Christina Force: So when I was an agent, I heard about these consultants in the United States who were charging an hourly rate to make someone's folio and I thought, Oh my gosh, that, that would be good. You know, maybe when I stopped being an agent, that might be something that I'd like to focus on because at some point I kind of, I remember being in Singapore one day with my 38 kilos of portfolios trying really hard not to spend too much time outside and get all sweaty to go into the next agency and thinking, Oh my God, I'm just over this. I cannot do this anymore. And had hired some people to do the repping bit for me, but I loved relationships. I loved meeting people, but it just felt like at times I was a bit of a vacuum salesman. You know, I know that's a terrible analogy, but it sort of felt a little bit like that sometimes it was really hard work jumping on planes very regularly from New Zealand almost every country is about a 12 hour flight. So it's pretty grueling. I was working all day. maximizing my time there so I could get back to my kids. So really sort of doing it all. And all day from agency to agency, to agency, to agency, and then every evening out drinking with clients, doing everything that you have to do to sort of, you know, get them. Be memorable and build relationships. So after I had a few moments where I thought, Hmm, I might be just ready to not do this anymore. I thought about the aspects of the work that I loved and that was, I really loved sitting down with the photographers and saying, well, why do you want to go? What? What do you want to do? And I also really enjoyed editing the work, and I always wished I had more time to do it, you know, when I was getting folios ready for a sales trip. It's a big job and I always wished I had a bit more time to focus on that. And so I felt like that's what I wanted to, to do when I sold the agency, just to be able to help individual photographers.
[00:18:18] individual photographer that I felt had the talent and the skill and the potential to actually reach that potential that that's what I felt would be really exciting. And I started out by promoting myself as a folio consultant. Actually, I started out by just writing a blog, but I didn't even get a break between businesses. I was really hoping to have some time off, but I was invited to do a talk at an event for the local photographers association, a bit like, um, CAPIC in Vancouver. It's called the AIPA here. And I don't know, there were about 300 people there and I was just bombarded instantaneously with and the photographers asking for help. And it was clear to me that some serious help was needed with these and my husband and a few other advertising creatives that said, I don't think photographers in New Zealand are going to hire a consultant on an hourly rate. I just don't think that's the psyche in this country everyone in New Zealand is very, yep she'll be all right. We can do it, do it on our own alright, why build a fence? We can do anything. So that is the psyche here. And I had said that I don't care. That's fine. I'll work with photographers in the United States or wherever because it doesn't bother me and I've worked all around the world.
[00:19:35] But I was astonished at the need for it in this country. And as I say, I was bombarded with people asking for help and everyone wanted a folio built. And that's where I started. But I realized that when you build folios, you've got to have an understanding of what the person's sort of essence is, what they're about, and who they're speaking to.
[00:19:58] And most of the time they really didn't have any idea about either of those two things. So for me, it felt like I cannot just whip up a pretty folio for someone and send them off on their way. It feels like I need to help them with the correct foundations so that they can go on their way and grow and flourish. And go in the right direction without killing their career. So that became much more important to me, that kind of bigger picture, holistic way of supporting photographers to really understand who they were. And I felt that it gave them way more kind of the ability to, to do that gross themselves more. If they had a better understanding of that basic stuff, which is not very, I'm not being very eloquent, but that's, I hope that makes sense.
The importance of finding your “Why”
[00:20:52] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. And I think that leads us right into, I mean, let's talk about the why I feel like this is something we dove in together and it's always the hardest thing I think for people to answer is, is the why behind what we do and you have a bit of a process around that. What does that look like and why should someone take the time to do that work?
[00:21:10] Christina Force: It all came again from the advertising world. Now, I know we kind of. You do tend to look at the advertising world and say, well, it's the big baddies and they're promoting brands that are not great and so forth. But ultimately, the thing about the advertising world is they do tons and tons and tons and tons of very, very deep research on the psychology of human beings.
[00:21:30] And I think that that is what draws a lot of people to the industry. And I find that aspect of it super interesting. And my husband, who's work to the advertising industry for a trillion years. So to me, you know what everyone's talking about in the ad industry? And this was years ago, just when I started my consulting business, he said, all brands are talking about their why? And it's become the buzzword because they've realized that they need consumers need a, why consumers need to know why a company exists, what their motivation is, what their mission is, but really Why they're even there because there's so many consumers now questioning the behavior of companies. So most companies are working that out for themselves as brands.
[00:22:22] And maybe your photographers need to know that too. And I thought that was really great advice. And I realized that it was really important as a photographer, you are selling yourself. You're selling. Not just your work that you make, but so much of that work you make contains you in it. You can't separate yourself from your best work because it's all wrapped up together.
[00:22:47] So I realized that that would be a really important aspect of my work with photographers and I delved into it and read quite a few books and watched quite a few TED talks and really got quite intrigued by this concept of of the why or the purpose of And since then, I've been integrating that into my process with photographers.
[00:23:11] So firstly, one of the ways it's really great to uncover a photographer's why is in their work. So often I have this process that I mentioned earlier, the digging out the essence of the photographer through their best work, which I think everyone gets that. And when I'm blitzing someone's work, The why pop sometimes pops out, not always, but sometimes it's, to me, I'll look at the work to guide me on that, to a certain extent, I'll give one example, a photographer that I work with who I have worked with, but also I work with on another program I run called the series project and when I did his blitz, I realized that he photographed quite ordinary things, but he made them larger than life and quite extraordinary. So, for example, if he photographed in India, which I see tons and tons and tons of photographs of people in India. It's quite, um, I'm not sure I'm ready. Yeah, not mad about a lot of them, but in his case, he had really zoomed right in to the features of these people he'd photographed. And he'd. cropped in so hard that you couldn't even see their hair in most cases. It was like, but they were ordinary people, but he'd photographed them in this really extraordinary way and really quite a hard light. And, but really their faces were open and alive. And so one thing I saw with him was it didn't matter what he photographed, just everything every day became. Extraordinary. And as a person, he's one of these sort of, I'm using this as an example, but as a person, he's also one of these genius people who. He's like got this London accent, real kind of working class accent, um, real down to earth guy, you know, all about the working people. And, you know, he's really got that real down to earth approach. And yet this genius, who was the youngest person ever to go to St. Martin's school of art since 17, something.
[00:25:23] So, you know, it's that even in his own character, he's quite larger than life. But really, really down to earth and humble. So it was, his work was simply reflecting who he was as a person. And when we talked about it, it was, he just says ordinary to extraordinary. That's his why ordinary to extraordinary.
[00:25:44] And we see it in all his work in all his best work. And I always say to him that, you know, if you can't see it in the shop, then it's probably not your best work. So that's one way of looking at and discovering someone's why. And it's so brilliant. As a guideline, as you can, as you can tell from just from that alone, but then there's so many ways of discovering your why.
[00:26:07] And I, I don't want to break into it and to me, so, so many ways, you know, you can ask yourself why seven times. Why am I a photographer? Because I like photographing. Why do I like photographing? Because I want the world to look beautiful. Da da da da. So you delve deeper and deeper and deeper. And the process I have come up with is based around a whole bunch of those different processes. And ultimately, you have to dig into who you are. You have to dig into the dark stuff to really find your why. I think in most cases. If it's not that obvious, it's probably because it's lurking under a bit of messy stuff. But yeah, Simon Sinek sums it up really well. The golden circle. He says that most people know their what, right? They're a photographer. You wear a lot of hats actually, but yeah, most people know their what and A lot of people know their how, but most people don't know their why. And that's the, that's the golden circle that, um, that Simon Sinek talks about. So I think that's really helpful if you haven't watch that. I know you have Marshal, but if your listeners haven't seen that fantastic Ted talk, I think it's called know your why something like that. I would strongly recommend it. Cause it's really fantastic. It's not that long and really inspiring. And I think it is really helpful when you do know your why, as I said earlier, you can look at work and quite easily, relatively easily figure out. Does that reflect my why? If it doesn't, there's a strong chance it's not one of my best pieces. You can look at jobs that come into you. You know, you can look at briefs and say, do I want to work on this job? They want me to do it for less than my normal fees. And a good question to ask yourself is well, does it tick your why? Does it, would you reach your purpose by doing that job? Is that something that Would be worth it for you. So you can use it as a really wonderful framework. When you make personal work, you can use your why and your purpose to guide you in making decisions about what to photograph and what to tell stories about.
[00:28:26] One of the first things I suggest to my, the photographers who do my program, I always introduce personal work. It's absolutely crucial. And on there, I always say, well, does it? Resonate with your why, because if it does, chances are, you're going to finish that project because it's driven from something so much deeper than just, Oh, that looks nice I'll just photograph that. So there's loads of ways you can really harness that why. Apart from obviously letting the world know that that's why you're doing this. And that's really great for them to know that. You're a photographer, not just, or a cinematographer, or a DOP, or a director, not just because you just like it, for a much deeper reason, and that just floats people's boat. So, yeah, that's the why.
Why creatives should keep doing Personal Work
[00:29:17] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. And I will say that's a super vulnerable process, by the way, if anyone's, uh, wanting to go down that rabbit hole, I would say you do a great job of coaching. You do a great job of coaching me through it. That being said, it doesn't make it any easier. I feel like I nailed, maybe came up with some of the more values versus my why in our process, which ended up becoming freedom and flow are the ones that stuck out for me. Which has been helpful and kind of unpacking some of the direction I may be, you know, heading and the glue that's maybe holding some of my work together in the tangent, which has been really cool to explore and see, um, after doing that blitz with you. So that was, um, yeah, your process is, is pretty cool. I highly recommend someone diving into something like that. It is, I would say the, it's the stuff we ignore in our journey a lot of the time, because we're just, yeah, we're creative people that like to. Press shutter buttons and record buttons and, you know, be out there playing with light, but I think it is super easy to forget about the, the core of why we're doing it or what the thread or the tangent between it all is, which, uh, yeah, you hit on there. It's just like, that is what people. Want to know who you are like, yeah, what separates you from the next photographer or DOP? So I think that is some really important work to be done that you've been digging into which is cool and that kind of leads into personal work. I know you're a big advocate of this stuff and you just kind of hit on it a little bit but I would like to maybe ask how do you get people to start to begin to build a body of personal work or push the personal work that they've already been doing because I think that's part of your process.
[00:30:49] Christina Force: Well, I think part of it is understanding the importance of personal work and understanding what personal work is. So we'll start there. So personal work to me. It's work that you've made for yourself, no one else, personal, it's personal. It's work that you've decided to make because you want to make it and because it resonates for you.
[00:31:13] And where there's a lot of confusion is where photographers will think, right, I've got to do some more, uh, lifestyle images to show that I can shoot families, or I need to show that I can technically do this, which is important too, really important. But those, as far as I'm concerned, are tests. That's the distinction to start off with. So if you're shooting anything that you think is personal because you're not being paid, but you've got any, you've got this idea of the client in your head or the, what the art director might like to see or what your agent might like to see or what would be good for your audience to prove that you can do something that's not personal. It's a test because it's been influenced by this concept that you've created about what they want, which isn't always right anyway. So that's the first thing. So I encourage photographers as much as possible to make work that is really personal to them, and it will generally be hopefully quite good work, but it doesn't matter because if it isn't great or you don't like it, you don't have to share it, right?
[00:32:23] It's just, it's so important for the creative process and it's so important for your health as a photographer or artist or, or image maker, lens based image maker to be nurturing yourself in this way, because that's why you started when you started this. You were someone who wanted to do that and you didn't have to get paid, you know, you just wanted to do it.
[00:32:47] And so we want to keep up that passion and that creativity and feed that, that need to, to look after that, that creativity in yourself. So that's the first reason personal work is so important. I've seen too many photographers burn out. I meet a lot of photographers at burnout and have to sort of rescue them from that. And the way I rescue them is personal work, getting them to do more personal work. So that's one reason it's really important. And one reason, one way I, I help photographers understand that.
[00:33:20] But the other really important reason for personal work is that the advertising world is made up of a whole bunch of, you know, creatives, designers, creative directors, art directors, um, so forth, who are all sitting, writing ads, you know, coming up with ideas all day. That's really important. That's, that's their job. They're looking for inspiration and. They often look at the work that's out there that's made by artists and lens based image makers. They, they're like sponges. They're really interested in the world. They're soaking up visual things because they're visual people.
[00:34:03] So that's really helpful to them to see work that you've made for yourself because it's not being made for another client. And secondly, they really... want to understand who you are as a lens based image maker. So they will very much go to your personal work. I've met barely any advertising creatives who don't tell me the first place they go to on a website is the personal work section to understand are you passionate? Is this photographer making work for themselves as well as for clients? What does that work look like? What's that photographer trying to say? What are these projects about? I'm interested in who this person is because I'm going to hire this person potentially for a number of weeks on a job and I want to know that this photographer or this person is is going to care about my job, but it's also going to be someone that's kind of interesting to hang out with.
[00:35:04] So personal work is so, so crucial to actually getting paid. It's the number one tool that you can use to get people to hire you. So it's kind of a no brainer and it's why. Both of my programs, both my mentoring programs feature personal work. One is all about personal work. That's the series project. There's just about making personal at one personal project, which we kind of take photographers through the process of and the other program, my bootcamp program, which is the one I mentioned earlier, where it's, it's a big overhaul, understanding your brand. understanding people pay for that, getting your online presence working, et cetera. That also includes a whole module on creating personal work that ticks the boxes that we've uncovered in the blitz. So your, why your vision things you care about. So it's literally without personal work, you will get to a point where you run out of work, where you run out of briefs, or the briefs you'll be getting will be driven by clients and they will take you further and further and further away from who you truly are. So it's, it's your lifeblood. So that's how important it is.
What separates a $2000 photographer from a $200,000 photographer?
[00:36:34] Marshal Chupa: I agree with all of that. I would say some of my personal work has been the best stuff that has gotten eyeballs or traction or giving a reason for conversation, all these bits and pieces that we need to be creating that energy and momentum in the career. So I 100% agree with that. So one of the questions I did want to ask you was what separates a 2, 000 photographer from a 200, 000 photographer? Because I think ultimately a lot of what I see and people kind of trying to figure out how to break into the industry, as there's a lot of just unknown around like, how the heck would I ever get to that level?
[00:37:11] And I'm curious, you've worked with a lot of photographers, you've seen a lot of trajectories and what kind of got them through that. So what are some of the things that would separate? Someone from, yeah, making 2000 to 200, 000.
[00:37:24] Christina Force: Well, obviously removing the things that we talked about at the beginning, which is obviously skill experience, the ability to, to shoot amazing images, good images, right? So all of that is a non negotiable, but from there, and obviously it could just be a gross thing. It's just a case of working your way up and up and getting those bigger building trust and getting those, those jobs. But there are quite a few things. I mean, One of them is attitude. Like, I really feel like the most successful photographers go into briefs and go into jobs with a really positive attitude. Now, I'm not saying they have to leap around and say how amazing it all is. There is a sort of... An openness to change to what could happen on a shoot to making the most of a bad situation to, you know, when you get a job and sometimes it's not the most perfect, it's not the greatest brief, but an openness to making something of that and saying, well, you know what?
[00:38:31] This isn't the greatest brief, but this is a really talented creative and I'd like to work with them more. So I'm going to help them out on this one or, okay, this isn't the greatest brief, but. I'll tick off what they need me to do and then I'm going to do some extra shots that I think might work. And even if they don't want them, I will use them, right? So there's all different sort of thinking outside the box and making everything into an opportunity, not a kind of a cumbersome, annoying oh, I've got this, you know, because not all jobs are brilliant. And there's a lot of compromise when it comes to working in, in the ad world, as you know, Marshall, you know, there's, I always used to talk about the three C's as an agent.
[00:39:17] You've got to be an amazing communicator. You've got to be able to compromise on things to help them reach their their goal of what they're trying to achieve visually. And do you know what? I have forgotten the third C I haven't heard, I haven't used it in years and when I remember it, I'll come back to it.
[00:39:37] But yeah, so that's really important is being able to sort of come at everything with an open mind and an optimistic attitude and seeing the opportunities where they arise. So I do feel those photographers tend to be appreciated more by their clients, by the creatives and because they're appreciated more by the creatives, they tend to be asked back and they'll build that relationship with that creative.
[00:40:05] Now in the advertising world, creatives can go from being a junior to a creative director in a matter of a couple of years. They just need to win a few awards. And suddenly they're working in the, you know, in one of the top New York ad agencies running a department because that is the nature of that industry. You can shoot up to the top very quickly. So if as a younger photographer or lens based image maker, you're working with people who are inadvertent commerce juniors, you never know where they're going to go. That's the other thing. You just don't know. And so everybody should be treated equally as well. And that's just so good to keep in mind is some relationships where you look at some of the top photographers in the world, they've probably started relationships with those people when they weren't that well known and they've ended up helping them win awards. Then you become one of their team. You become one of their, their gang that they're going to hire. Because you helped them win an award. So that's really important.
Why creatives need to have the right money mindset
[00:41:13] Marshal Chupa: What about a little bit of like maybe the money mindset? I know that's a big one for people starting out. Like if you're charging a few thousand dollars a day to being able to charge 25, 000 a day, I think that's just like this huge mindset gap. You know, I have friends who are so talented at what they do and it bothers me that they're still I'm charging small day rates and they should be shooting Nike campaigns. And I'm just curious, like, what is the mindset shift or even the education around being able to, like, if a bid hits their plate and they don't even, I know if you underbid something, you're actually more likely to not get the job than if you overbid it.
[00:41:48] So like that process, is there anything that you've seen when it comes to like the money mindset or charging your rates or knowing your worth like in that category?
[00:41:57] Christina Force: Well, part of it is surrounding yourself with amazing people and something I see with, and this is part of it, you know, no, I can do it myself. I don't need to pay someone else to do it. I can do it myself, but that's a really small mindset and that will not get you very far in the advertising world or the photography world because you need a massive team. The more you do, the more you need people to help you make those things. So, and the more, the more money you want to make the more reason you're earning, you know, you're working on 500k jobs is because you have a really crack hot team that's behind you that's going to support you through that, but you're paying good money to, so you have to be willing and open to, to grow and delegate and be the boss of a team and be a leader and collaborate those things are really really important that does fit into the mindset issue, because if you're not willing to hire people to do things for you, you're going to end up just kind of muddling along, which is what I see with a lot of those photographers that just stay small because they just think I can do it all myself, but it's not going to get them to those bigger jobs. I used to, as part of my production company, sometimes the girls were called into ad agencies to help them with art buying when they were really stuck. So they'd see it from the other side and they would be astonished at some of the quotes that came in. They'd just be like, This photographer has missed out all of this really important stuff. We can't take the risk of hiring this person. Or they've had to go back to the photographer and say, look, you've missed out all of this stuff. Can you put it in, please? Can you put a producer in? Can you put, where's the stylist? Have you considered that you might need to actually do this over three days because you haven't considered the first day you have to shoot that image. And then, make sure that the light is going to be matched before you can move on to the next, you know, all of these things that require big picture thinking. And part of that I've found is not being afraid to ask questions, not being afraid to ask questions when someone briefs you. And because again, it tends to be the beginner photographers that don't want to look stupid. So they'll not ask enough questions, they'll make assumptions and they will not get the information they need to quote it properly, or they'll make assumptions and they'll turn up and realize things were needed that they didn't inquire about and they're way off the mark on their budget and out of pocket.
[00:44:38] So that's the questions of the client. The questions to the crew being really, when you get a brief, the most experienced people will hire producers. And at the beginning, at the, just the whisper of the job, they'll be, they'll have a producer working for them or they'll hire someone and say, right, can you come to me with, come with me to this meeting so we can take this brief together. They know that two heads are better than one. They know that the agency likes that because it shows that they're well resourced. And the great thing about that is that they will ask, you know, the clients really good questions that the photographer might not think of because producers are quite logistical based people. So they're going to ask different questions that will be important. But the other thing is that going away from that sort of production briefing meeting and calling the right crew and saying to, for example, the retoucher, what do you need me to shoot to make this work for you? How can we make this job the best possible job and calling the wardrobe person saying, do you think that this exists or are we going to have to make it? What are your thoughts? And just asking questions of everybody to get to the answers. I mean, every single job we did at the collective force began that way. And it is a big jump I find from those real struggling, muddling along people at the bottom to the people who are getting those really big jobs is the ability to let other people in and the ability to not, not, not to worry about looking bad, to be able to ask questions, say, you know, I have no idea about this. I'm going to investigate or ask people who do know about it. And then I think mindset wise, that's a hard one. I mean, everyone has their own. Money mindset issues that come from God knows where being five and watching and thinking that they were poor and then discovering they weren't or whatever, who knows? So that's work that probably if you're struggling to ask for the money, that can be something that you need to work on. Each person might individually need to work on, but my advice is always when you have a job that requires a bit of thought. Just call a producer, get someone involved right from the beginning and listen to what they have to say, because they will make the job better, not worse.
[00:47:17] I don't know whether that sort of addresses the money thing, but I do feel like that does sort out a lot of stuff.
[00:47:22] Marshal Chupa: Yeah, it does help. I think something that that's exactly what I'm doing this week. In fact, like it's a first call getting a brief I've already. Got the producer lined up to be on the call with me in the very first one, because I've learned that, uh, in the past, if I get on there and I kind of get the bits and pieces, and then I try to kind of be the balance between, it's like much more effective to have that person basically team up right away from the very get go and say, Hey, let's do this together. They are, you know, the spreadsheet guru, they can think about all the line items that I probably would have ignored or overlooked. And I think that's really good piece of advice is to bring in a producer from the very beginning, because as creative people, we like to stay in our right brain. Producers are good at the left brain stuff. And I think obviously to be successful, what we do, we need both. So that's, that's one of the biggest learning curves or learning pieces that I've taken away in the last, I would say year or so is just always having that person along for the ride with you. Otherwise, like again, you're wearing too many hats.
[00:48:19] It's more stressful. And ultimately I think you probably make less money because you underbid it or something like that. So I think that's a really good one.
[00:48:27] Christina Force: Yeah. I mean, we actually had, um, I was on a forum once. I wasn't on it. I was too busy to be on it, but one of my staff saw it. And, um, when I had my agency, I had nine staff and We were quoting a job for a Japanese company once, uh, automotive campaign. And, and we just quoted it and put the quote in and, um, you know, top dollar. We knew that they Japanese clients generally, you know, they want to know you're doing it properly. So we knew that we had to sort of include everything, cover off all options, make sure that it was a really safe quote that didn't put us in any, at any risk. And someone jumped onto this local forum and said something about I'm quoting this job for these Japanese people and it was obviously the same job. And I don't really know what to quote and I'm thinking this, you know, and my producer looked and said, Oh, Christina. And I just wouldn't just stay out of it because we can't, but what was clear to us was he was just thinking so small. He was so terrified of not getting the job that he was so worried about the numbers and making it cheaper that he literally was missing the point and he'd forgotten all of the necessary, as you say, line items that you need to include. And afterwards when we got the job, the client said to us, Oh, you, we awarded you the job because you just seemed to know what you were doing as opposed to the others.
[00:49:57] We love the photographer, but we also could see that you guys could pull it off. And I think at the end of the day, we're not selling a photograph. We're not selling a pretty picture to put on someone's wall. We're selling a service and they have to have utter faith. You can take their brief and translate it and deliver something incredible at the end of that.
[00:50:23] That's what they want faith in. But they also want to know that they can wheel you out in front of their client and that you're not going to embarrass them or make them look bad that you're going to be able to take care of the people who turn up on set, the clients, the, the account handlers from the ad agency, that all of the vast entourage of people that turn up to these things.
[00:50:51] And you're not going to freak out when. Someone needs lunch, you know, all of those things are nothing to, to us. You know, you, you're so familiar with this Marshal and so am I, but I've realized there's such a big black hole where photographers haven't had that experience or understand that experience. And perhaps they come from the editorial world and really don't realize that is the huge difference. And that is why they get paid more money because a lot of the expenses are about the process, it's about making sure you allow extra time for approval from all the different people through the loop that are going to have to have to say yes or change something and making allowances for that and making sure that on set there's an allowance for all these extra people that are going to turn up.
[00:51:43] So those things to me are a massive difference between that, as I say, editorial world versus advertising world. And those bigger jobs.
[00:51:51] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. It's definitely the experience you kind of bring to the table. I mean, one example that comes to my mind is just most recently just realizing on one of the bigger jobs I was working on just how quick the turnover is for the content needing to be from the camera to like online posted very fast turnover.
[00:52:09] And just seeing that, like, Oh, wow, I actually might need to hire like a live colorist to be on set grading as we go, because as soon as this stuff gets handed off, it's going online in the next day or two, and there's no real window for actually grading it. So it's just like, okay, well, I guess I'm going to hire like a DIT and colorist to be on set doing live grading and proving it between shots. Like that's literally what I think has to happen and that's just not something I've ever thought I needed or would need, but being able to like, kind of observe, react and realize like the client doesn't know they need that, you know? But when I look at the work hit online, I'm like, Oh my goodness, it's, they didn't even bother to, to do the final 20%, you know, and it hurts me creatively. It hurts my creative soul. I'm just like, okay, well how am I going to fix that? You know? Okay. It's just another line item for them. They don't know they need it, but I do. And so it's going to, it's going to happen next time.
[00:53:00] Christina Force: Yeah. And that's, you're really buttoned down in that way. And, and I think it really. Does pay off and you're right there and know that you need that kind of camera or that kind of that extra person or, or whatever, but they rely on you to tell them what you need to make the best possible jobs that I always say to photographers as certain technical aspects of your practice, that if you didn't have those things, would make your shots much less than what they should be. And so when you consider that they're hiring you because of this beautiful work they seen on your website or on your reel, then you've got to be able to get as close to that as possible. Obviously it's not always entirely possible, but you do your very best to get as close to that. And in order to do that, there's certain things that you have to be non negotiable on, and that could even be a certain amount of extra time to work with the talent beforehand, or to do the casting yourself, or to go actually recce the location once the scout has identified some places so that you can really, truly get clear on where the light is and where you want to shoot all of those things. If they're essential to your practice, they need to be built into your estimate and they need to have that sort of non removable, like do not remove, you know, from this line. Whatever the price is for that, perhaps that can change, but those things cannot be removed.
[00:54:35] And I call that your secret recipe. You know, every single photographer and director and lens based artists has a secret recipe, which involves certain gear, certain processes that should be absolutely locked into your template and non removable.
[00:54:56] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. And I will caution that every single time you think that's your recipe, your recipe is going to try to get destroyed every single time. I feel like you just, you have to fight for the recipe. It's just like, yeah, it's when it comes down to the budget is changing or the people or whatever. There's always The time of day is usually the biggest one. Obviously light is our biggest tool and yet, you know, okay. Talent's not available to this time or whatever it is.
[00:55:18] Like, you're just like, well, then it's not going to work. They're like, well, what do you mean? It's not going to work. So you got to come up with also creative solutions. Okay the light's going to be over there, well, now we've got to diffuse it with a massive 20 by whatever it is. Like all those things, you got to be able to create a problem solved. But yeah, again, I totally hear you and that you have to have your non negotiables. And if they get broken, you have to explain the consequences. And if they're willing to accept the consequences, then that is what it is because of schedule and time and whatever it is, but you have to lay it out first.
[00:55:48] Christina Force: You know, everything you just said is so true. And I think there comes a point where you actually have to say, Hey, you are a major problem solver. I always tell my clients, photographers are problem solvers with a good personality, right? That's commercial photographers. You know, you got to just be continuously calm and chill and professional and with a big smile and able to communicate all of those things, all whilst mayhem is going on around you, but you've got to be a problem solver. Ultimately, even right from day one, when you get that brief on your desk, you're helping them come up with ways to, to realize their, their vision. So you are a problem solver all the way through. But yeah, I think that someone said to me once, no one remembers how much it costs. And they don't, they don't remember how much it costs. They don't remember how many hoops you jump through. They just, at the end of the day, have an image or a TV spot or a piece of video or motion that they have, that's what they have. And people move on and at the end of the day they only have that. And if it doesn't look that great, they don't know that you didn't have your secret recipe or you had to compromise or you told them it was going to look great. Not as good as your, the rest of your work, but they do have your name, so you have to be really judicious about what you are going to let go and what you're going to hang on to. And as I say, you know, it could just be a bit of extra time that you throw in free of charge and say, I'm not charging you for this. But I will not remove it because if I don't do, put this extra half day in, you won't get the quality that you're hiring me for. And ultimately you've come to me because you've seen these images you like. And as we've both said, of course there's compromise all the way, but I do think there comes a point where you have to be willing to walk away.
[00:57:48] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. And I think another note is just like, obviously as artists were perfectionists and I think seeing stuff pop up online in my most recent experience, I'm like, could be 15% better if it was graded properly or something like that. But then you talk to the agency and you hear the results and the client is so happy. They're so excited. They're really like the turnaround was great. Everything feels good. And it's just like, okay, well then maybe I need to let that somebody has got to let go. It's just like my, my expectations are clearly a lot higher than theirs and they're stoked. And they're the ones who, uh, ultimately problem I am solving. So there's a bit of that. I will, how do I say I'm catching myself on what's, what is the goal? You know, what is the goal? Yeah. That's where like, I think personal cuts of certain things or personal grades or, you know, for that will end up in the portfolio afterwards can happen, you know, cause you have the time and you can just maybe go out and spend a little bit of your money and then hire a colorist or whatever it is to help you dial in what you did have, but didn't have time to do you know, I've done that as well because then the next person that comes and sees it at least we'll see the vision that you had to a hundred percent of its value.
[00:58:50] So that's how I've kind of got around that a little bit in the past, but yeah, just checking myself on what are the, are the people who hired me happy, ultimately check, you know, that's the biggest checkbox. So.
[00:58:59] Christina Force: That's so true. And, um, I've actually had clients or say clients. I mean, creatives come to me and ask for the version that the photographer made for themselves. So they could put it in their folio because they couldn't convince the client to go with the, the version that they, they photographed, they got on set on the job, but, but they really appreciated the version that the photographer did.
How can creatives nurture relationships and get out of their “bubble”?
[00:59:26] Marshal Chupa: Yeah, that's funny. So a little bit, just one more question before we start to wrap things up. So I think something that we've worked on together, I think that you've been good at is helping uncover how to build and nurture relationships. I think that's a big question mark or an unknown, especially for like photographers who are naturally introverted, like the whole communication relationship building, like doesn't feel natural.
[00:59:51] I'm curious if you wanted to speak a little bit to that process and how you help people kind of. Get out of their bubble, so to speak.
[00:59:58] Christina Force: Well, I think part of getting out of the bubble is just, again, going back to the beginning and being, knowing that you can be yourself and you don't have to hide idea that, Oh, I, you know, I can't, can't let them know that I've been shooting for 30 years because they'll think I'm too old or, you know, all of this stuff. So that's a strange example. I'm sorry, but I get all sorts, you know, and I think that understanding your. Who you are as a photographer and really sort of being honest with that can often free up a lot of baggage around contacting people because when you're trying to be someone you're not, that's really hard. That's really hard work. So when you can actually be who you are and you're not hiding anything, then that does make it a lot easier to get in front of people. Although it can also be a bit. It's scary as well to, to show who you really are. You can be vulnerable yes, but that's a really good starting point. In terms of then reaching out to people I think you've got to really, it's really helpful to know who they are, who the people are you're speaking to people and photographers and everybody in marketing tends to try and reach a broad audience. So I need to more people to see more eyes on my work and that is true, but working really hard to understand those key people who will hire you and really researching them and getting to know who they are as human beings can be much more effective in a getting them across the line or getting them to look at your work and getting them to hear you when you contact them because you've actually made the effort to understand who they each are as individuals. But also that can be really helpful and in you understanding they're just humans like you. And I've seen it from both sides. I'm married to an advertising creative. All of our friends are in the advertising world have been for my whole life. And then on the other side, I've got all these photographers I've always worked with who are also my friends. And I have been on the business side of both of those people as an agent. I've heard, they've all told me truth and art buyers, you know, they've told me honest feedback. And one thing I hear all the time is Photographers saying, Oh, I don't want to call him because he might be too busy and he might not want to hear from me. But I have literally heard the advertising creative saying, Oh my gosh, I really hope that photographer likes my idea. I really hope you like, I wonder if he'll call me. I really hope he does. I really hope he likes it. And it's this ridiculous, these classic creative minds worrying about each other's approval, which comes from both sides and I've seen no one call anyone because everyone's too scared. And then the photographer, I'm not going to call him he's too busy. He won't want to speak to me. And the art director going, he didn't call me I'm kind of a bit pissed off about that. I really thought he'd like the idea.
[01:03:03] You know, you can say this stuff. So one of the things I've done with very, very shy photographers is to suggest that this is when a brief comes in, but even reaching out to them, it's exactly the same. Just do some research. There is no excuse now for you not to be able to find out every little thing you need to know about someone that you're trying to get in front of this social media. There's stuff everywhere. Google is fantastic. The internet is fantastic. Just use it and just go on a little bit of a, a kind of detective mission and start to uncover who these people are as humans. Because you'll discover they've got a wooly dog that always needs a bath because he rolls in the mud when he goes for a walk. And they've got three kids that drive them crazy because two of them are twins and , one's precocious and they've just been on holiday in Fiji and their wife does this or their husband does this or their partner does this and you start to see them as human beings and then they become much less daunting to contact and then once you understand that then you can start reaching out to them in a way that is far more real and humanized instead of this kind of I'm a photographer doing this and I'm sending you stuff. You can actually say, Hi, I see that you went to this place. I went there three years ago. It was so beautiful. Wasn't it? You know, you can start to have a genuine conversation, which builds a relationship and isn't all jumping straight to, Hey, look at my work. Look at my work. You don't need to go to that. It's just, it's about the relationship. And so I always say, you are dealing with humans, not brands, and as long as you keep that in mind, that can be really helpful to understand that we're all just human and they're probably as shy as you are in some cases, not all. But that has really helped some of my shyer clients who've realized that they've got so much more in common with these people than they realized.
[01:05:14] Marshal Chupa: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, ultimately it comes down to relationship. That's the my experience at least. And it is such a good reminder to just strip it back because I think super easy to build up things in our mind. Oh, they're how do I work for Nike? Well, you don't work for Nike. You work for Josh, who is the creative director at Nike, who then you have to go to get to know his how to, well, how do you talk to Josh? And you gotta go down the ladder and figure all that out. So I think, yeah, once you break it down like that and you're like, oh, okay, well, I don't work for. I don't just go to Nike, you know, it doesn't make any sense. Um, once you understand that process, you humanize it and realize, well, it's, yeah, it ultimately is rapport building just like you would with any other friend or family.
[01:05:53] That is something that is super important and has helped me immensely. I would say, and I think it's a really good tip.
[01:05:59] Christina Force: In fact, I, one of the things I suggest, because I think the biggest barrier to that is time photographers think, well, and sorry, I keep saying photographers, but you know what I mean? Everyone listening, you know, it's really hard to think, Oh, I don't have the time to spend a whole day researching one person or few hours investigating what that person does. How am I going to do that for everyone? But the way I look at it is consider how long you spend investigating a holiday. When you're going on holiday, do you just go, Oh, I'm just going to book the flight. I'm just going to book the hotel and I'm Maybe you do, but I don't know if it's a vacation or holiday, you want to have a great time, right? So the amount of time that people can invest into just making sure they go to the correct, you know, the nicest possible hotel with the best reviews or the best Airbnb and the best place that has the best views and the best. Swimming spots and dah, dah, dah, all of the things, if people invested the same amount of time into understanding their potential target audience that they do into going on holiday, then, you know, it would happen.
[01:07:13] Marshal Chupa: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and a nice way to think about it. Cause ultimately it does feel overwhelming. I'll be, I'll be honest. That's how I feel. I'm just like, well, how I'm naturally introverted. I feel like, wow, how would I have time to manage all these relationships? But ultimately I think, I think something maybe you've helped me as well as to kind of pinpoint, okay, well, what are the actual. What are the, who are the key people that you need to be focused on as well? Because I think I get overwhelmed by the amount of people. So I think it taking the time to pinpoint, okay, if, if my strips it back to your whole process, coming back to the why, what is the work I want to get? Who are the people that need that work? Then doing the research, finding who these people are, and then humanizing the process from there. I think, yeah, I think that's such a good mindset around the flow that I've been, they've helped me to kind of come uncover the last little while. That's been cool.
[01:08:01] Christina Force: Yeah, there are so many names and they, because they're creative people, they often come up with creative names for their jobs as well. So it's not always easy to identify who does what. Oh my gosh. Yeah. There's a trillion names for any one art director in an agency and it's sometimes it's just a bit hit and miss, but that's why the research is helpful. And when you go on holiday, you're going for two weeks, but when you're doing this research, it's potentially a relationship that can last 10 years 20 years.
[01:08:29] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. Very true. I think that's a good way to look at it is is the long-term investment. It's not like a quick hit, it's an investment. Exactly. Because like you said in the very beginning when we started chatting, it's like a lot of these bigger jobs or these big photographers you see, you don't realize that's a 20 year relationship they built and they've already shot five small campaigns for them, and this is just happens to be the big one you're getting seen on social. And so I think a lot of people forget or, or. Exposed to the experience that took them to get there. So don't take it for granted that they think it's just, it's all roses for these certain people, you know.
[01:09:03] Christina Force: Well, there's no such thing as an overnight success. Is there,
[01:09:07] Marshal Chupa: no, I guess not.
[01:09:09] Christina Force: But in any industry, it's just, yeah, it's always a sum total of lots of, lots of hard work.
[01:09:15] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. And as we've been to wrap things up, is there anything that maybe you'd like to share with our listeners that would maybe be something key that stands out for you that would be helpful and maybe in their toolkit or something they should think about when moving forward in their creative journey?
The importance of knowing who you are as an artist
[01:09:29] Christina Force: I think that at the end of the day, it's circling back to that understanding who you are as an artist and really kind of trying to uncover that, trying to try not to be someone you're not. And when you're trying to get work in front of clients and build your website and improve the way you, you appear online, I think it's so important to, to retain that honesty in the kind of work you want to be making and trust that there is someone out there that will pay for that. And in that regard, knowing also that your online presence is for those people. So once you have kind of understood what you're about and what you love shooting and how you love shooting, what's the feeling that you evoke in people and viewers? Start to get to know the language of the people you're trying to reach out to, and to make sure that your online presence does a really good job of communicating to them in their language, the work you love making.
[01:10:33] Marshal Chupa: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Ultimately, what we show is what comes back. I feel like there's a bit of a time period where I mean, that's why I think we do personal work is to kind of build that rapport or that folio of what we aspire to shoot and then eventually people start to. Get to know you for that work. I know that's been my personal experience is like even a spec spot. I shot multiple years ago is now coming back and I'm seeing briefs getting passed off to me that I'm like, well, that looks like the spec spot. I shot. That's that's crazy. But it took multiple years of that build up of which I think now people are like, Getting that in their head of like, Oh, that's what Marshal shoots. So I think, uh, really just speak back to the personal work part too.
[01:11:11] Christina Force: Absolutely. And yeah, that personal work, Oh my gosh, just keep doing it because it's, I call it your lifeblood and it is your lifeblood in so many ways. It's going to keep putting food on the table, as well as keeping you sane. So that's really important.
Conclusion
[01:11:29] Marshal Chupa: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show today, Christina. I appreciate the chat. And I think there's a lot of valuable insights in there for those on the journey of how to make a life and a living behind the lens. So appreciate you.
[01:11:40] Christina Force: No worries. Thank you so much for having me, Marshall.
[01:11:44] Marshal Chupa: Okay. That was consultant and mentor to photographers Christina Force. Christina is an amazing mentor and I can truly say has had a large impact on my direction of my career. If you're looking to dive deep with someone who can make a large impact for you, I encourage you to check out her online bootcamp where she brings you through her entire process of how to get paid to shoot what you love.
[01:12:06] You can find her program at christinaforce. net that's christina f o r c e dot net Or on Instagram at Christina dot force in future episodes, I will be speaking with photographers, cinematographers, directors, producers, reps, and anyone who has decided to take this ambitious leap of making a life and a living behind the lens.
[01:12:26] Stay tuned and subscribe to the channel on your favorite podcast app. And if you heard something of value, share it with a friend or shoot me a DM on Instagram and encourage me to keep this thing going. Thanks for listening. And we'll catch you next time on shot list.
